philb's rule of remote controlled devices, the remote control is always further away than the device being controlled additionally, on those occasions where that, the first rule, is not true the second rule kicks in. that is the remote is close at hand but the device is not cooperating, usually because of lack of electrical power. So I then remedy the situation by walking to the device, plugging it in and turning it on, but in order to satisfy the first rule I MUST have the remote in my hand when I do this It's at this point that I become distracted and leave the remote somewhere STUPID the third rule is actually a drwiii rule, that says that if both of philbs rules did not apply it would mean that all the appliances were already plugged in and switched on and they would overheat and burn down the house philb you missed the fourth rule that states that if all of the above rules have been nullified then the batteries in the remote are usualy found to be flat. Net_Fish, good point that HAS happened.