From rkillingsworth at compuserve.com Thu Aug 1 12:47:09 2002 From: rkillingsworth at compuserve.com (Robert Killingsworth) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:52 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Re: free-sklyarov digest, Vol 1 #384 - 2 msgs References: <20020801113250.14227.90893.Mailman@zork.zork.net> Message-ID: <008b01c23994$71e0dbe0$667ba8c0@attbi.com> << Mr. McCullagh was there at the Information Hiding Workshop when the Felten paper was withdrawn. >> Xcott, Declan did say "research related to computer security". The Felten paper was about cracking SDMI and watermarks, not computer security. Bob From jok707s at smsu.edu Fri Aug 2 03:29:56 2002 From: jok707s at smsu.edu (jok707s@smsu.edu) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:52 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Frankentoons Message-ID: <3D4AD0FE@caliber> In case anyone reading this has not seen the Frankentoons yet, here's the URL: http://www.libr.org/frankentoons/ The month of August marks the end of the third year that the Frankentoon site has been continuously online at its current location without any legal challenges. As noted on the site, Frankentoons can be handy for a wide variety of uses; for example, they can be appropriate images to put on signs to carry during those street protests in Moscow and other locations. :-) Use your imagination, and Happy Frankentooning. Joel Kahn * * * * * * * * * * * "The world is dense with micro-miracles." -- David Gelernter, _Drawing Life: Surviving the Unabomber_, 1997 From rkillingsworth at compuserve.com Fri Aug 2 04:01:32 2002 From: rkillingsworth at compuserve.com (Robert Killingsworth) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:52 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Re: Security warning draws DMCA threat Message-ID: <007b01c23a13$f84bc4e0$667ba8c0@attbi.com> << Mr. McCullagh was there at the Information Hiding Workshop when the Felten paper was withdrawn. >> Xcott, Declan did say "research related to computer security". The Felten paper was about cracking SDMI and watermarks, not computer security. Bob From lists at politechbot.com Fri Aug 2 22:51:09 2002 From: lists at politechbot.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:52 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Security warning draws DMCA threat In-Reply-To: ; from sacraver@EE.Princeton.EDU on Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 10:56:50AM -0400 References: <1177500239.20020731150426@elcomsoft.com> Message-ID: <20020803015109.B29506@cluebot.com> Ah, not a typo. Felten & co were addressing a different topic. I mention that case further down in the article. -Declan On Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 10:56:50AM -0400, Xcott Craver wrote: > On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, Vladimir Katalov wrote: > > > By Declan McCullagh > > Staff Writer, CNET News.com > > > > HP's dramatic warning appears to be the first time the DMCA has been > > invoked to stifle research related to computer security. Until now, > > it's been used by copyright holders to pursue people who distribute > > computer programs that unlock copyrighted content such as DVDs or > > encrypted e-books. > > Ahem, *cough* *cough*. > > This must be a typo. Mr. McCullagh was there at the > Information Hiding Workshop when the Felten paper was withdrawn. > He also mentions Dr. Felten later in the article. > > -X > > > > > _______________________________________________ > free-sklyarov mailing list > free-sklyarov@zork.net > http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov From ruben at mrbrklyn.com Sat Aug 3 23:15:29 2002 From: ruben at mrbrklyn.com (Ruben I Safir) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:52 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Security warning draws DMCA threat In-Reply-To: <20020803015109.B29506@cluebot.com>; from lists@politechbot.com on Sat, Aug 03, 2002 at 01:51:09 -0400 References: <1177500239.20020731150426@elcomsoft.com> <20020803015109.B29506@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20020804021529.A8071@www2.mrbrklyn.com> Ech Does it matter? On 2002.08.03 01:51 Declan McCullagh wrote: > Ah, not a typo. Felten & co were addressing a different topic. I mention > that case further down in the article. > > -Declan > > > On Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 10:56:50AM -0400, Xcott Craver wrote: > > On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, Vladimir Katalov wrote: > > > > > By Declan McCullagh > > > Staff Writer, CNET News.com > > > > > > HP's dramatic warning appears to be the first time the DMCA has been > > > invoked to stifle research related to computer security. Until now, > > > it's been used by copyright holders to pursue people who distribute > > > computer programs that unlock copyrighted content such as DVDs or > > > encrypted e-books. > > > > Ahem, *cough* *cough*. > > > > This must be a typo. Mr. McCullagh was there at the > > Information Hiding Workshop when the Felten paper was withdrawn. > > He also mentions Dr. Felten later in the article. > > > > -X > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > free-sklyarov mailing list > > free-sklyarov@zork.net > > http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > > _______________________________________________ > free-sklyarov mailing list > free-sklyarov@zork.net > http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > -- __________________________ Brooklyn Linux Solutions __________________________ http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.nylxs.com/radio - Free Software Radio Show and Archives http://www.brooklynonline.com - For the love of Brooklyn http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www.nyfairuse.org - The foundation of Democracy http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/mp3/dr.mp3 - Imagine my surprise when I saw you... http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn.... 1-718-382-5752 From sethf at sethf.com Sun Aug 4 00:53:28 2002 From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:52 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Security warning draws DMCA threat In-Reply-To: <20020804021529.A8071@www2.mrbrklyn.com>; from ruben@mrbrklyn.com on Sun, Aug 04, 2002 at 02:15:29AM -0400 References: <1177500239.20020731150426@elcomsoft.com> <20020803015109.B29506@cluebot.com> <20020804021529.A8071@www2.mrbrklyn.com> Message-ID: <20020804035328.A27814@sethf.com> On Sun, Aug 04, 2002 at 02:15:29AM -0400, Ruben I Safir wrote: > Ech > > Does it matter? Think of it as history in the making. Along the lines of First man in space - Yuri Gagarin First American in space - Alan Shepard (not John Glenn, he was US first orbit) First woman in space - Valentina Tereshkova First American woman in space - Sally Ride Etc. - I got these from http://neurolab.jsc.nasa.gov/answ_pers.htm We're now working on: First programmer jailed from DMCA charges - Dmitry Sklyarov First American programmer jailed from DMCA charges - [to be determined] First (insert-type-here) research threatened by DMCA - Felten, SnoSoft, etc. I think I arguably have "First programmer chilled by the DMCA", since I was worried about it way back, regarding my anti-censorware work. And the Library Of Congress DMCA censorware exemption indicates that worry was valid (even now I'm dumping a lot of code-related anti-censorware work, since the DMCA censorware exemption doesn't cover code, and I *don't* want that first-American-jailed title :-( ) This could be an "amusing" list. We can look forward to: First programmer jailed from DMCA conviction (found guilty after trial) First academic researcher jailed from DMCA conviction ("conspiracy" counts?) First (different-type-here) research threatened by DMCA And so on. -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer sethf@sethf.com http://sethf.com Anticensorware Investigations - http://sethf.com/anticensorware/ Seth Finkelstein's Infothought list - http://sethf.com/infothought/ http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/19/technology/circuits/19HACK.html From sacraver at EE.Princeton.EDU Sun Aug 4 05:36:46 2002 From: sacraver at EE.Princeton.EDU (Xcott Craver) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:52 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Security warning draws DMCA threat In-Reply-To: <20020804035328.A27814@sethf.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Aug 2002, Seth Finkelstein wrote: > First programmer jailed from DMCA charges - Dmitry Sklyarov > First American programmer jailed from DMCA charges - [to be determined] > First (insert-type-here) research threatened by DMCA - Felten, SnoSoft, etc. While I personally am a bit of a cynic regarding the ultimate usefulness of watermarking, I generally regard steganography research (along with cryptography research) as falling under the general topic of computer/information security. The HP threat is actually a very important first: it's the first time the DMCA was used to censor research that had nothing whatsoever to do with copyright protection. This is important because we always worried that it would happen. Due to the broad nature of the DMCA, and the confusing nature of computer science concepts to the courts and legislature, companies are able to make any act of reverse-engineering, alteration, or unintended use of their product a DMCA violation. MicroSoft could sue software vendors whose product reads and writes Word files or WMF files, arguing that the file formats protect copyrighted materials. Of course, any cracked cipher could have been used as part of a DRM system. I guess here, HP was going to argue that their operating system was a copy protection mechanism??? When we fear that a law is too broad, there are critics who argue that we are presenting woulda-coulda scenarios that will not occur in real life. HP's threat may be the first real example of the extreme vagueness of the law. -X From sethf at sethf.com Sun Aug 4 07:26:03 2002 From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:52 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Security warning draws DMCA threat In-Reply-To: ; from sacraver@EE.Princeton.EDU on Sun, Aug 04, 2002 at 08:36:46AM -0400 References: <20020804035328.A27814@sethf.com> Message-ID: <20020804102603.A1219@sethf.com> > On Sun, 4 Aug 2002, Seth Finkelstein wrote: >> First programmer jailed from DMCA charges - Dmitry Sklyarov >> First American programmer jailed from DMCA charges - [to be determined] >> First (insert-type-here) research threatened by DMCA - Felten, SnoSoft, etc. On Sun, Aug 04, 2002 at 08:36:46AM -0400, Xcott Craver wrote: > While I personally am a bit of a cynic regarding the ultimate > usefulness of watermarking, I generally regard steganography > research (along with cryptography research) as falling under the > general topic of computer/information security. Well, be careful there ... consider "National Security". That is, it's possible to have a too-inclusive definition. > The HP threat is actually a very important first: it's the > first time the DMCA was used to censor research that had nothing > whatsoever to do with copyright protection. Good point. Though I haven't reviewed all past applications, someone will have to be first. > This is important because we always worried that it would happen. > Due to the broad nature of the DMCA, and the confusing nature of > computer science concepts to the courts and legislature, companies > are able to make any act of reverse-engineering, alteration, or > unintended use of their product a DMCA violation. Something bothers me here. I'm arguing against my own interests, but this phenomena isn't exactly DMCA-specific. For example, in the CyberPatrol censorware case, some of the charges used against the programmers were quite "creative", e.g.: http://www.eff.org/IP/DRM/Microsystems_v_Scandinavia_Online/20000316_verif_complaint.html COUNT V (Conversion against Jansson and Skala) 33. Defendants Jansson and Skala tortiously and unjustifiably converted Cyber Patrol for their own use. Charging "conversion" for reverse-engineering is almost exactly making "unintended use of their product" a violation. So it's really not something new with the DMCA. Rather, the DMCA is now yet another "kitchen-sink" charge. Hmm. So we have at least: First time DMCA used in threat against (insert-type-here) research First time DMCA used in court against (insert-type-here) research First time DMCA upheld in court against (insert-type-here) research > MicroSoft could sue software vendors whose product reads and writes > Word files or WMF files, arguing that the file formats protect > copyrighted materials. For pure formats, I think that would fail because of the following constraint: (B) a technological measure ''effectively controls access to a work'' if the measure, in the ordinary course of its operation, requires the application of information, or a process or a treatment, with the authority of the copyright owner, to gain ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ access to the work. Microsoft isn't the copyright owner of the files. > Of course, any cracked cipher could have been used as > part of a DRM system. I guess here, HP was going to argue that > their operating system was a copy protection mechanism??? Frankly, I don't think anyone thought that far ahead. This reads to me like someone was trying to intimidate as much as possible. > When we fear that a law is too broad, there are critics who argue > that we are presenting woulda-coulda scenarios that will not > occur in real life. HP's threat may be the first real example of > the extreme vagueness of the law. Let's call it "example of popularity as an intimidation tool". Otherwise, I suspect a skeptic will answer "You can threaten to sue anyone for anything, so this proves nothing". -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer sethf@sethf.com http://sethf.com Anticensorware Investigations - http://sethf.com/anticensorware/ Seth Finkelstein's Infothought list - http://sethf.com/infothought/ http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/19/technology/circuits/19HACK.html From ruben at mrbrklyn.com Sun Aug 4 11:27:15 2002 From: ruben at mrbrklyn.com (Ruben I Safir) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:52 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Please Pass along In-Reply-To: <20020804102603.A1219@sethf.com>; from sethf@sethf.com on Sun, Aug 04, 2002 at 10:26:03 -0400 References: <20020804035328.A27814@sethf.com> <20020804102603.A1219@sethf.com> Message-ID: <20020804142715.G16488@www2.mrbrklyn.com> I'm forwarding this because these classes pay for most of the NYLXS and NY Fair Use work Please pass this around. ________________________________________________________________________ Revised Class Schedule Free Software Institute REVISED Class Schedule for August: Classes $300 individually perl 1 and 2 bundle $550 GNU/Linux 1 Unix 1 bunlde $550 -> Students talking GNU/Linux 1 are require to purchase a computer used for the rest of the corse work Complete program package -> perl1, perl2, gnu/linux 1, unix 1, gnu/linux 2, unix 2 Database Programming 1, Introdution to Networking 1 $4000 Perl2 - Object Orientation in Perl ? Basic CGI Programming ? Database usage and SQL ? Building Database Web Applications with DBI ? Basic MYSQL administration and SQL ? Templating Web Design and Rapid Development with Perl ? Introduction to mod_perl ? Writing Basic Apache Tuesday at ASHA: 7:00PM - 11:00PM August 6th August 13th August 20th August 27th September 3rd Unix 1 - Unix Tool, find, locate, man, grep, AWK, sort, df, ls, gcc, make cp, ln, mv Permissions, tcp networking,route. Wednesday at Rozensweig and Maffia 7PM-11:00 August 7th August 14th August 21st Augisyt 28th September 4th Linux 2 - Apache Installation: Download Source Code untar make make install Configure Apache Apache root httpd.conf initiation startup script httpd processes htdocs directory mysql installation Download source untar make install set initial permissions set up initiation file System monitoring tripwire system log monitoring top kill renice/nice last who w netstat route cron/crontab Port scanning/network security nmap inetd.conf tcp wrappersm- hosts.allow hosts.deny simple package forwarding, firewall, ipchains/NAT sshd,encrypted channels, VPN Thusdays - Brooklyn NYLXS Headquarters - 7PM-11:00PM August 8th August 15th August 21st August 28th September 5th Unix 2 - shell scripting, C programming, Desktop X Tuesdays NYLXS Headquarters - Brooklyn August 6th August 13th August 20th August 27th September 3rd ------------------------------ Total program for reference: Sylibus: Introduction to GNU/Linux Installation Boot Media, Kernels Hard Drives Partitions fdisk, type 82, type 83 swap partition mkswap, swapon, partition types, partition tables, /boot /home /usr /var file systems, ext2, reiser, ext3, mke2fs inodes, MBR Introduction to the Shell kernle ->getty -> login ->shell /etc/passwd adduser /etc/group Introduction to VI, vim, vi commands: command mode i =>insert o =>open a =>append dd=>delete g=>goto yy =>yank p=>paste jklim edit mode type and character into screen to go back to command mode execute mode :w write :q quit /search search :wq! at all costs 1,$s/old/new/g <== substitution globaly Basic Shell comands ls - directory listing cp - copy mv - move ls ru* - globing cat - cancatonate ps -auxw - see processes pstree - see process tree top - system report Directory tree files, ownership, group permissions Setting up X XF86Setup Knowing your video card Knowing your monitor sysinit - /etc/rc.d/init.d - turning services off and on network setup ipaddress host name domain gateway dns adding users - different on different systems /etc/passwd /etc/shadow ifconfig - see network connections modules - modprobe, demode, lsmod, kernel compile Introduction to unix Unix Tool, find, locate, man, grep, AWK, sort, df, ls, gcc, make cp, ln, mv Permissions, tcp networking,route. Introduction to Programming with Perl Advanced Unix2 shell scripting, C programming, Desktop X. Introduction to Apache: GNU/Linux 2 Install of mod perl, install of Apache, Install of embperl, and mason, basic apache configuration with files and virtual servers, etc Advanced Web Programming with Perl embperl, modperl, the apache request cycle, cgi's, html, forms, cookies and sessions Database Programming 1 MYSQL installation, Creating tables, performance evalutions, SQL seelcts, Inserts, user permissions, Perl DBI, C API. Introdution to Networking 1 REVIEW tcp/id, introduce mail, sendmail, bind, DNS, DHCP, SAMBA, NFS, SSH, ROUTE Ruben -- __________________________ Brooklyn Linux Solutions __________________________ http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.nylxs.com/radio - Free Software Radio Show and Archives http://www.brooklynonline.com - For the love of Brooklyn http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www.nyfairuse.org - The foundation of Democracy http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/mp3/dr.mp3 - Imagine my surprise when I saw you... http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn.... 1-718-382-5752 From schoen at loyalty.org Mon Aug 5 03:27:53 2002 From: schoen at loyalty.org (Seth David Schoen) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Please Pass along In-Reply-To: <20020804142715.G16488@www2.mrbrklyn.com> References: <20020804035328.A27814@sethf.com> <20020804102603.A1219@sethf.com> <20020804142715.G16488@www2.mrbrklyn.com> Message-ID: <20020805102753.GU2935@zork.net> Ruben I Safir writes: > I'm forwarding this because these classes pay for most of the NYLXS and NY Fair Use work > > Please pass this around. I don't consider this advertising appropriate for free-sklyarov. -- Seth David Schoen | Reading is a right, not a feature! http://www.loyalty.org/~schoen/ | -- Kathryn Myronuk http://vitanuova.loyalty.org/ | From jeme at brelin.net Mon Aug 5 19:32:37 2002 From: jeme at brelin.net (Jeme A Brelin) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Security warning draws DMCA threat In-Reply-To: <20020804102603.A1219@sethf.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Aug 2002, Seth Finkelstein wrote: > 33. Defendants Jansson and Skala tortiously and unjustifiably > converted Cyber Patrol for their own use. Tortious conversion? That's a new one by me. > For pure formats, I think that would fail because of the following > constraint: > > (B) a technological measure ''effectively controls access to a > work'' if the measure, in the ordinary course of its operation, > requires the application of information, or a process or a > treatment, with the authority of the copyright owner, to gain > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > access to the work. > > Microsoft isn't the copyright owner of the files. So? That's not what the law says. Microsoft is _A_ copyright holder for documents represented in SOME files held in Word format. I think that gives them standing to bring suit against anyone who "circumvents" the "access control" that is the Word document format. J. -- ----------------- Jeme A Brelin jeme@brelin.net ----------------- [cc] counter-copyright http://www.openlaw.org From sethf at sethf.com Mon Aug 5 20:39:58 2002 From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Security warning draws DMCA threat In-Reply-To: ; from jeme@brelin.net on Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 07:32:37PM -0700 References: <20020804102603.A1219@sethf.com> Message-ID: <20020805233958.A7822@sethf.com> > On Sun, 4 Aug 2002, Seth Finkelstein wrote: >> 33. Defendants Jansson and Skala tortiously and unjustifiably >> converted Cyber Patrol for their own use. > On Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 07:32:37PM -0700, Jeme A Brelin wrote: > Tortious conversion? That's a new one by me. There was also COUNT IV (Interference with Advantageous Business Relations against Jansson and Skala) 30. Defendants Jansson and Skala intentionally or recklessly interfered with Microsystems' relationships with third party users of Cyber Patrol. That is, making it less likely for people to buy the product was an offense :-). >> For pure formats, I think that would fail because of the following >> constraint: >> >> (B) a technological measure ''effectively controls access to a >> work'' if the measure, in the ordinary course of its operation, >> requires the application of information, or a process or a >> treatment, with the authority of the copyright owner, to gain >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> access to the work. >> >> Microsoft isn't the copyright owner of the files. > > So? That's not what the law says. > > Microsoft is _A_ copyright holder for documents represented in SOME files > held in Word format. I think that gives them standing to bring suit > against anyone who "circumvents" the "access control" that is the Word > document format. You have to establish that a general document format is an "access control" in the first place - that's where the constraint applies regarding "with the authority of the copyright owner". I think there's some confusion in that people have an idea that there must be a *specific* work which is *specifically* infringed, OR anything can be charged as any connection, no matter how tenuous, to infringement. The DMCA did change the law. It's enough to have a general proposition. That is, the requirement is *abstract*. One doesn't have to demonstrate any particular copyright is violated, just the violation of the DMCA's general propositions about the control of copyright holders. This is why Sklyarov was charged. But I don't see how a general file format fits, as something that relies on "the authority of the copyright owner", as a general proposition. I'm trying to be realistic here, in both directions (that is, what's likely-to-succeed, and what *isn't* likely-to-succeed). There's really two different aspects here that I'm trying to disentangle. One is the chilling effect of any legal threat itself, the kitchen-sink charges. These are the charges that companies make just because-they-can. They don't really expect them to hold up in court. The charges are in the threat letters just to scare and intimidate the target, and to inflict harm by causing the target legal expense to defend against them. This isn't new with the DMCA. It goes on all the time, e.g. the above "conversion" and "interference" charges in the CyberPatrol case. The other aspect is what's likely to stand up in court. For example, Felten, as a possibility, if the RIAA had pursued it. This is qualitatively different, in that the goal is using the law _per se_, not the attrition process of a lawsuit (of course, these two aren't exclusive, but I think it's a useful division). Basically, I think there's some situations where the law has changed *profoundly*, and others which are "just" same-old-legal-tactics. Both are chilling to programmers. But I worry that a skeptic will dismiss the DMCA situations where there have been profound changes (overturning the _Sony_ substantial non-infringing use standard), if those are conflated with situations of same-old-legal-tactics (throw charges, who cares if they fit, that's a detail, see if they stick). This is where I think it'll be a mistake to go down a path talking about everything-is-a-copy-control-device, and thus so-DMCA-applies-to-everything. No, that's an error in my view, and I fear it'll be dismissed as nonsensically alarmist. The point in the Elcomsoft case is that the DMCA doesn't require any specific copyright violation. But that doesn't mean everything under the sun having to do with computer security or formatting, is now a potential copyright-control violation. That's where I think a wrong turn was being made, into a straw-man that was going to be easy to demolish by DMCA proponents. Maybe I'm wrong. And I'm certainly bad at politics. My view here is affected by going through years and years of getting flack from critics about how I was imagining legal risk for my anti-censorware work, that lawsuits wouldn't happen, etc (it's less these days than years ago, but I'm *still* even getting some of that - maybe I'll benefit from Bruce Perens' recent DMCA pull-back). I like to have claims be as well-grounded as possible. Because I know how savage can be the attacks of critics that the possibility of prosecution is just a product of paranoia. -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer sethf@sethf.com http://sethf.com Anticensorware Investigations - http://sethf.com/anticensorware/ Seth Finkelstein's Infothought list - http://sethf.com/infothought/ http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/19/technology/circuits/19HACK.html From jewojcicki at cox.net Tue Aug 6 05:38:06 2002 From: jewojcicki at cox.net (Joseph E Wojcicki) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Take me off of this, SKYAROW MAILING LIST!! Message-ID: <000c01c23d46$1d7d4830$6401a8c0@cx2057082a> Plesae take me off of skyarow mailing list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://frotz.zork.net/pipermail/free-sklyarov/attachments/20020806/837d54fd/attachment.htm From schoen at loyalty.org Tue Aug 6 10:18:06 2002 From: schoen at loyalty.org (Seth David Schoen) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Take me off of this, SKYAROW MAILING LIST!! In-Reply-To: <000c01c23d46$1d7d4830$6401a8c0@cx2057082a> References: <000c01c23d46$1d7d4830$6401a8c0@cx2057082a> Message-ID: <20020806171806.GH23240@zork.net> Joseph E Wojcicki writes: > Plesae take me off of skyarow mailing list To remove yourself from free-sklyarov, follow the directions at the bottom of http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov/ If that doesn't work, you can contact free-sklyarov-admin@zork.net. -- Seth David Schoen | Reading is a right, not a feature! http://www.loyalty.org/~schoen/ | -- Kathryn Myronuk http://vitanuova.loyalty.org/ | From mickeym at mindspring.com Tue Aug 6 17:23:17 2002 From: mickeym at mindspring.com (mickey) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Security warning draws DMCA threat References: <20020804102603.A1219@sethf.com> <20020805233958.A7822@sethf.com> Message-ID: <3D506875.6000503@mindspring.com> Seth Finkelstein wrote: >But I don't >see how a general file format fits, as something that relies on "the >authority of the copyright owner", as a general proposition. > > I agree, but it 'fits' anyway because it sounds like complicated technology to most people. Granted, file formats can be complicated, and some are more wierd than others. Making a file format that is extremely wierd, like a DVD, is a hurdle more because it is not publicly documented rather than it's complexity. All file formats are complicated, and so is the software that uses them, and so is the machine on which it runs. All of it is technical, and if you consider using any of it as a measure to "protect" a set of data, then it is going to be covered by 1201. As in: File formats are complicated technologies. We made our files specially complicated to protect our investment. Now these hackers want to unleash their "cat" commands on our DVD movies. > This is where I think it'll be a mistake to go down a path >talking about everything-is-a-copy-control-device, and thus >so-DMCA-applies-to-everything. No, that's an error in my view, and I >fear it'll be dismissed as nonsensically alarmist. > > You are correct, it is being dismissed. Unfortunately, I think that the need for alarmism is coming. In the long term, I am concerned that most things in life will have a copy-control aspect because nearly everything is copyrightable or patentable. A sound, a picture, a story, a slogan, a shirt, a coffee mug, a lawn mower. Some of it is copyable at home now, others in time, and most things eventually. It used to be implied, at least it seemed that way to me, that the mechanism for enforcement of copyright law was meant to work primarily in the commercial arena. But what about personal use, at home? The present meanings of "gain" and "harm" are stretched so far that any application of the law can be imagined. The real fun, I think, will begin when we can buy a cheap printer that prints the blue jeans you scanned when they were new (or faded just right). What do you think, maybe ten years away? Mickey From rms at computerbytesman.com Wed Aug 7 09:25:53 2002 From: rms at computerbytesman.com (Richard M. Smith) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Tracking who is on the free-sklyarov email list In-Reply-To: <000c01c23d46$1d7d4830$6401a8c0@cx2057082a> Message-ID: <00f901c23e2f$1ca11920$6501a8c0@ne2.client2.attbi.com> Hi, Here's a quick note about the HTML email message which was sent yesterday to the list and was entitled "Take me off of this, SKYAROW MAILING LIST!!". The message was "bugged" to track who read the email message. The Web bug was the image of the postage stamp included in the message. The results of this tracking can be found here: http://www.havetheyreadityet.com/HaveTheyReadItYet/0/RHIE/EEUT/VJFD/EDBH /24eb1347-Enter.htm See ya, Richard M. Smith http://www.ComputerBytesMan.com ################################################################# ################################################################# ################################################################# ##### ##### ##### ################################################################# ################################################################# ################################################################# From mrussotto at speakeasy.net Wed Aug 7 20:21:31 2002 From: mrussotto at speakeasy.net (Matthew T. Russotto) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Security warning draws DMCA threat Message-ID: >> On Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 07:32:37PM -0700, Jeme A Brelin wrote: >> Tortious conversion? That's a new one by me. > There was also > COUNT IV > (Interference with Advantageous Business Relations against Jansson and Skala) > 30. Defendants Jansson and Skala intentionally or recklessly interfered > with Microsystems' relationships with third party users of Cyber Patrol. > That is, making it less likely for people to buy the product > was an offense :-). Tortious conversion is the civil version of theft. The "interference" tort is usually, IIRC (and IANAL) applied to cases where a third party interferes with a contract; that is, if A has a contract with B, and I know it and entice A to break that contract, I might have committed tortious interference. CyberPatrol's use of it seems a stretch. > You have to establish that a general document format is an > "access control" in the first place - that's where the constraint > applies regarding "with the authority of the copyright owner". Unfortunately, the line here is very thin. On the one side (I hope), we have formats like Word DOC, which is not encrypted, simply unknown. On the other side are formats like the Adobe eBook format and the DVD format, which are encrypted with the key provided separately. Somewhere in the untested middle are formats which are encrypted but with the key provided within the format. This is a non-empty set. Some PDF files fall into this category, for example. Suppose Microsoft were to make the next DOC format encrypted, but provide the encryption key within the document (perhaps obfuscated in some manner). Would writing a program which could read such DOCs fall under the DMCA? Would anyone dare to do so if Microsoft asserted it did, given the state of the courts today and given the potential penalties (5 years in prison for creating it, 5 years for marketing it, 5 years for trafficking in it -- for each sale). The courts, unfortunately, have given no indication that they'll interpret the DMCA narrowly. While I think HPs DMCA claim was way out in right field, there is certainly a tenuous DMCA argument to be made -- access controls on computer systems are (among other things) designed to keep one user from accessing another user's content. All original works are copyrighted upon fixation in a tangible medium, including a hard disk. So bypassing those measures by illicitly obtaining root could be seen as circumventing a technological protection controlling access to a copyrighted work. So, given the stakes -- that is, the end of your life as a free citizen if you lose -- who wants to be the test case? I understand your point -- that there are real DMCA abuses and there are those that are just invocations of the name "DMCA" to scare. But the problem is that the DMCA is so broadly written that most invocations of the name are likely to have a plausible argument behind them. And there isn't enough case law to determine which of those plausible arguments will be accepted -- and what case law there is, isn't good. About the only totally unjustified invocation was Blizzard's against bnetd, where they slammed directly into one of the explicit exceptions in DMCA 1201. But they then used the DMCA 512 automatic gag order provisions to shut down bnetd while they drag out a totally unjustified copyright lawsuit indefinitely, so it turned out to be DMCA abuse after all. (off-topic, the courts seem willing to accept all sorts of tenuous arguments to get "bad guys" nowadays -- witness the guy who drove a drunk driver to his car being charged, not with "accessory to drunk driving" or some other offense which might actually apply (probably because no such offense exists), but for manslaughter. Never should have made it to the jury, yet it did. Hackers are "bad guys" -- it's easy to connect the dots) From sethf at sethf.com Wed Aug 7 23:19:04 2002 From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Security warning draws DMCA threat In-Reply-To: ; from mrussotto@speakeasy.net on Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 11:21:31PM -0400 References: Message-ID: <20020808021904.A20637@sethf.com> On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 11:21:31PM -0400, Matthew T. Russotto wrote: > I understand your point -- that there are real DMCA abuses and there are > those that are just invocations of the name "DMCA" to scare. But the > problem is that the DMCA is so broadly written that most invocations of > the name are likely to have a plausible argument behind them. But this is true of many other laws too, such as various computer fraud and theft laws. In fact, even though the DMCA part of the HP letter received all the publicity, there was also threat under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, My point here is I fear a skeptic is going to reply in this case: "Ya, ya, you can threaten to sue anyone for anything. This DOES NOT mean there is a problem with the DMCA. It's just a problem with scare tactics. See, all it took was little publicity, and they backed-off. Stupid lawyers make stupid threats all the time, and it backfired on them and made the targets famous. It could happen with laws against theft, with fraud, with "conversion", and so on. The system is working just like it's supposed to do so. It doesn't show a DMCA problem at all, it shows a dumb HP lawyers problem, and you're all a bunch of paranoid hackers." And I worry that being vulnerable to such an easily made counter-argument is going to take away precious mind-share from the profound legal changes as demonstrated in the Sklyarov charges and Elcomsoft trial. Again, maybe I'm wrong, because I'm looking at it from the standpoint what I went through from *years* of trying to convince people about legal risk. You don't have to tell me about chilling effects. Remember, as I mentioned earlier, I've ended up dumping a lot of code-related anti-censorware work, since the DMCA censorware exemption doesn't cover code, and I *don't* want that first-American-jailed title :-( ). But when someone talks about the possibilities of prosecution to people who are *not* already members of the choir, I haven't found the reaction to be an immediate "My God! I never realized it was so bad!" Rather, some common reactions *by skeptics* are (not exhaustively): 1) You're paranoid, it won't happen, it's all in your fevered imagination. 2) The ACLU or the EFF will defend you, they live for this sort of thing. 3) Break the rules, get what you deserve. So my concern is that, perhaps counter-intuitively, this threat is not going to aid momentum for DMCA changes. And that too much focus on it as a DMCA poster-child is in fact going to *weaken* arguments against the DMCA, because it doesn't capture anything unique or new about the DMCA (being broadly written and used in threats is unfortunately *not* unique or new). -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer sethf@sethf.com http://sethf.com Anticensorware Investigations - http://sethf.com/anticensorware/ Seth Finkelstein's Infothought list - http://sethf.com/infothought/ http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/19/technology/circuits/19HACK.html From jok707s at smsu.edu Thu Aug 8 02:49:26 2002 From: jok707s at smsu.edu (jok707s@smsu.edu) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions Message-ID: <3D520EFF@caliber> Mickey's posting on Aug. 6 reveals some of the fundamental problems in the current "system," but I think that they need to be stated more explicitly. This planet has two huge industries that are essentially incompatible with each other. The older one, built around traditional copyright assumptions, is based on restricting what people can do with information; the newer one, tied to many advancing technologies (primarily electronic), rests on selling people tools that give them more and more power over information. Some companies are heavily involved in both halves of the dilemma at the very same time--Microsoft is probably the biggest example of this. Since the copyright-destroying effects of the new technologies crept up on the world (we all know how short-sighted raw greed can be), millions of jobs--indeed, many entire careers--became tied to each part of the contradiction before the overall problem became clearly visible, so a lot of people are solidly bound and determined to somehow have their cake and eat it too. There is just enough of a bare theoretical possibility of this to keep people trying. In reality, of course, no system of technology or law enforcement or both is going to be able to preserve the kind of environment that Michael Eisner, Jack Valenti, &c would like to see; it would require the kind of bizarre global totalitarian state that Franz Kafka and George Orwell might dream up if they dropped LSD together and tried to collaborate on a novel. However, a lot of bought-and-paid-for legislators are going to keep working for a long time on laws that will supposedly make it happen. The tragicomic mess will probably continue for quite a while before we see a total collapse of copyright. As so often happens, the biggest short-term beneficiaries will be the lawyers. Joel Kahn From jeme at brelin.net Thu Aug 8 04:51:43 2002 From: jeme at brelin.net (Jeme A Brelin) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: <3D520EFF@caliber> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, jok707s@smsu.edu wrote: > This planet has two huge industries that are essentially incompatible > with each other. The older one, built around traditional copyright > assumptions, is based on restricting what people can do with > information; the newer one, tied to many advancing technologies > (primarily electronic), rests on selling people tools that give them > more and more power over information. You've got this backwards. The "industry" of sharing information and providing people with tools to use and manipulate that information is as old as civilization itself. The newer idea is that information can be artificially restricted in order to increase scarcity and commodify a thing which is not material. The problem isn't that new technologies "destroy copyright". The problem is that, as with so many other ideas and ideals in our culture, the purpose has been lost and the means have become an end unto themselves. The goal was confused with the means by which we might attain the goal. The means was a restriction of the rights of all people but authors to meet the goal of reliable copies of works for posterity. Instead, the means has been re-rationalized as some kind of right in and of itself. This is very similar to the way the profit (the means by which Enlightenment values, such as increasing the efficiency and productivity of labor to provide more time for personal growth and education, might be realized, according to Adam Smith) was re-rationalized by the Capitalists as a goal in and of itself and democracy (another means by which Enlightenment values, such as self-determination, might be realized, according to folks like Thomas Jefferson) was re-rationalized by the Majority to be an goal in and of itself. The pattern repeats itself throughout our civilization since the 1790s. Copyright was extended again and again to include more and more types of information and an industry grew around these state sanctioned monopolies. Being monopolistic, the industries were extremely lucrative and hence grew in power and influence. Authors were put by the wayside in favor of "copyright holders". The industry lobbied to extend the restriction of rights beyond scientific works of authorship to the fine arts, thus crippling our culture, for it is the nature of fine art to feed off itself and the culture in which it develops. The rich and accurate domain of public information that was to be created by this means of copyright has been completely written out of the system by the industry's interests (much in the same way that the increase in leisure time was written out of the system by the interests of the profitmakers). Industry has an inherently democratizing aspect to it in that the demand of people to have power and control over their lives creates a drive in industry to meet that demand and provide tools that enhance that power and control. This is essentially why technology gets cheaper and easier to provide for a larger number of people. Power and control over information is no different. People have always had this and want more. Hence, we, as a civilization, develop technologies that enhance that power and control and work to bring those technologies to the masses. The fundamental conflict isn't between those who want to control information and those who want to spread it freely. That conflict is a side-effect of the true struggle. The true struggle is between those who would control the means of production of information and those who want to preserve their right to produce and share the products of their own creativity, insight, and investigation. The copyright industry recognizes that every tool that can be used to share and copy its restricted information can also be used to share AND PRODUCE unrestricted, public information. The use of public, unrestricted information decreases demand for private, restricted information. Using terms from the toolbox given to us by Marx, this is essentially a struggle by the masses to wrest the means of production from the clutches of the elite. > In reality, of course, no system of technology or law enforcement or > both is going to be able to preserve the kind of environment that > Michael Eisner, Jack Valenti, &c would like to see; it would require > the kind of bizarre global totalitarian state that Franz Kafka and > George Orwell might dream up if they dropped LSD together and tried to > collaborate on a novel. The hegemony of the United States is very like a global totalitarian state and the newly created Office of Homeland Security is very like something Kafka and Orwell might dream up if they dropped LSD together and tried to collaborate on realizing one of their nightmare imaginations. > However, a lot of bought-and-paid-for legislators are going to keep > working for a long time on laws that will supposedly make it happen. > The tragicomic mess will probably continue for quite a while before we > see a total collapse of copyright. This "total collapse of copyright" will not be an event that happens at some point in time. It is simply true that modern technology is making the industry that grew up around copyright exploitation irrelevant. Personally, I think the best solution to the copyright problem is the more widespread use of digital signatures and checksums. This means would also increase the reliability of the historical record as applied to news and information on the internet (consider that cnn.com will alter an article several times in one day and provides no method for assuring that a particular clipping ever appeared on their site). > As so often happens, the biggest short-term beneficiaries will be the > lawyers. I think this is more an expression of a personal bias and grudge than any kind of relevant observation. J. -- ----------------- Jeme A Brelin jeme@brelin.net ----------------- [cc] counter-copyright http://www.openlaw.org From tack at gaffle.com Thu Aug 8 05:36:30 2002 From: tack at gaffle.com (tack) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] bugging free sklyarov In-Reply-To: <20020808113302.31699.57372.Mailman@zork.zork.net> Message-ID: the best way to enumerate this is to send mail to this list. Personally, when I've sent stuff to this list, I've gotten bounces from blockbuster video accounts. Can't blame them for making people subscribe in the first place...."know your ememy, know yourself and in a hundred battles, you will not be in peril" -Sun Tzu. In any case...any person can join this list. So assume our foes are lurking. I've got a BBQ...if a bunch of SF fools want to get together to sign keys...where people can meet and vouch for each other, I'd be glad to host such an event. I also cook a mean london broil and have 2 bottle openers on me at any given time...even a corkscrew. reply off list, of course tack > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > From: "Richard M. Smith" > To: , > "'Joseph E Wojcicki'" > Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 12:25:53 -0400 > Subject: [free-sklyarov] Tracking who is on the free-sklyarov email list > > Hi, > > Here's a quick note about the HTML email message which was sent > yesterday to the list and was entitled "Take me off of this, SKYAROW > MAILING LIST!!". The message was "bugged" to track who read the email > message. The Web bug was the image of the postage stamp included in the > message. > > The results of this tracking can be found here: > > http://www.havetheyreadityet.com/HaveTheyReadItYet/0/RHIE/EEUT/VJFD/EDBH > /24eb1347-Enter.htm > > See ya, > Richard M. Smith > http://www.ComputerBytesMan.com From nick at zork.net Thu Aug 8 10:04:49 2002 From: nick at zork.net (Nick Moffitt) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Recent editorial Message-ID: <20020808170449.GL19372@zork.net> My mother passed this URL along to me http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,426427,00.asp > Now, you're probably asking, "Does His Hirsuteness really think > e-book hacking is worthy Katt fodder?" Well, it is when you consider > that the company posting the information is the employer of Dmitry > Sklyarov, the Russian programmer who was arrested last summer at the > Def Con convention in Las Vegas. Sklyarov was arrested under the > U.S. Digital Millennium Copyright Act for possession of his Advanced > eBook Proccessor software. Possession of the software, which was > capable of penetrating safeguards in Adobe's technology, got the > 27-year-old programmer indicted under a DMCA provision against > trafficking programs that circumvent technology protection. After > online protesters rallied to the Russian's defense, Adobe eventually > dropped its charges, and Sklyarov was allowed to go home. -- Jack Valenti is to the American film viewer and the American public as the Boston strangler is to the woman home alone. -- http://cryptome.org/hrcw-hear.htm (search for "Boston") From mrussotto at speakeasy.net Thu Aug 8 17:30:39 2002 From: mrussotto at speakeasy.net (Matthew T. Russotto) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions Message-ID: <3AF3DD5B-AB2F-11D6-B5ED-0003938C3EE0@speakeasy.net> On Thu, 8 Aug 2002 02:19:04 -0400, Seth Finkelstein wrote: > But when someone talks about the possibilities of prosecution > to people who are *not* already members of the choir, I haven't found > the reaction to be an immediate "My God! I never realized it was so bad!" > Rather, some common reactions *by skeptics* are (not exhaustively): > 1) You're paranoid, it won't happen, it's all in your fevered imagination. > 2) The ACLU or the EFF will defend you, they live for this sort of thing. > 3) Break the rules, get what you deserve. These "skeptics" are unconvincable, and there's no reason to base anything on their reaction. For any point on the continuum of "extremely unlikely DMCA use" to "certain DMCA use", they will give you one of those three answers. If, at any point, you find a position where they previously claimed was "utterly paranoid" and which someone has now been arrested or convicted for, they will simply switch from 1 to 3, perhaps passing through 2. You can't convince these people with arguments, nor with facts. They do not wish to believe that their government is capable of such nastiness, and so they will engage in any sort of doublethink to keep that disbelief. They are like Winston Smith's neighbor George in _1984_, who kept believing in Big Brother's benevolence even as he was imprisoned. In ten years, these same people will be saying "Of course you need a license to program a computer, it would be anarchy otherwise" -- and pointing out to them that no license was required in the recent past will be utterly futile. > So my concern is that, perhaps counter-intuitively, this threat > is not going to aid momentum for DMCA changes. And that too much focus > on it as a DMCA poster-child is in fact going to *weaken* arguments > against the DMCA, because it doesn't capture anything unique or new > about the DMCA (being broadly written and used in threats is > unfortunately *not* unique or new). So what can we use? Can't use Felten; that's a dead issue. Can't use 2600, because that's a nasty hacker magazine and anyway instructions aren't protected speech (oops, there goes that doublethink). Can't use Sklyarov, because he's a Russian and his company *sold* tools which could be used for "piracy". (A lot of "skeptics" seem to think that selling the product makes it wrong. I don't understand the reasoning myself) Fact is, any poster-child we come up with is going to have problems in the eyes of these "skeptics". From sethf at sethf.com Thu Aug 8 21:14:33 2002 From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: <3AF3DD5B-AB2F-11D6-B5ED-0003938C3EE0@speakeasy.net>; from mrussotto@speakeasy.net on Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 08:30:39PM -0400 References: <3AF3DD5B-AB2F-11D6-B5ED-0003938C3EE0@speakeasy.net> Message-ID: <20020809001433.B27282@sethf.com> > On Thu, 8 Aug 2002 02:19:04 -0400, Seth Finkelstein wrote: > But when someone talks about the possibilities of prosecution > to people who are *not* already members of the choir, I haven't found > the reaction to be an immediate "My God! I never realized it was so bad!" > Rather, some common reactions *by skeptics* are (not exhaustively): > 1) You're paranoid, it won't happen, it's all in your fevered imagination. > 2) The ACLU or the EFF will defend you, they live for this sort of thing. > 3) Break the rules, get what you deserve. > On Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 08:30:39PM -0400, Matthew T. Russotto wrote: > These "skeptics" are unconvincable, and there's no reason to base > anything on their reaction. ... Well, what works? I must admit I've not had a great deal of success myself. Maybe there's nothing we can do. I don't claim to be an expert at such convincing. I'm only sharing empirical problems I've encountered from my own experiences in trying to convince skeptical people. If the world is divided into the unconvertable, and the choir singing they're-coming-to-take-us-away, that's disheartening. I do think Felten makes a very good DMCA example, even if the declaratory case didn't proceed. Because it goes to the issues at the heart of the DMCA itself. http://www.cdmediaworld.com/hardware/cdrom/news/0105/decss_2600.shtml Wanted: Loveable hero for copyright battle By Lisa M. Bowman, ZDNet News Although free speech is supposed to protect expression made by society's fringe elements as well as by the mainstream, public opinion and even judges can be swayed by tales of mischievous crackers poised to attack your computer. "As soon as the judge says 'hacker,' you know you've lost," University of Minnesota law Professor Dan Burk said. "There is an attempt to paint defendants as unsympathetic, low-priority, on the fringe--to make it seem like nobody respectable is going to be harmed except for weird hacker types." -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer sethf@sethf.com http://sethf.com Anticensorware Investigations - http://sethf.com/anticensorware/ Seth Finkelstein's Infothought list - http://sethf.com/infothought/ http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/19/technology/circuits/19HACK.html From seth.johnson at RealMeasures.dyndns.org Thu Aug 8 21:10:00 2002 From: seth.johnson at RealMeasures.dyndns.org (Seth Johnson) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions References: <3AF3DD5B-AB2F-11D6-B5ED-0003938C3EE0@speakeasy.net> <20020809001433.B27282@sethf.com> Message-ID: <3D534098.D926BA61@RealMeasures.dyndns.org> Seth Finkelstein wrote: > > Well, what works? I must admit I've not had a > great deal of success myself. Maybe there's nothing we > can do. I don't claim to be an expert at such > convincing. I'm only sharing empirical problems I've > encountered from my own experiences in trying to > convince skeptical people. If the world is divided into > the unconvertable, and the choir singing > they're-coming-to-take-us-away, that's disheartening. Actually, organizing is best done by pitching to the choir. The key is to show those who agree with you something in motion, and thereby find the ones who are looking for something real to be a part of. That's how you recruit the leaders and build a movement. Organizers "call to emulate." It isn't about spin or consciousness-raising, which the "preaching to the choir" line implies, whenever you hear it brought against you. Seth Johnson -- [CC] Counter-copyright: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/cc/cc.html I reserve no rights restricting copying, modification or distribution of this incidentally recorded communication. Original authorship should be attributed reasonably, but only so far as such an expectation might hold for usual practice in ordinary social discourse to which one holds no claim of exclusive rights. From tompoe at renonevada.net Thu Aug 8 21:29:14 2002 From: tompoe at renonevada.net (tompoe@renonevada.net) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions References: <3AF3DD5B-AB2F-11D6-B5ED-0003938C3EE0@speakeasy.net> <20020809001433.B27282@sethf.com> <3D534098.D926BA61@RealMeasures.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <3D53451A.6030306@renonevada.net> Hi: Let's see what you folks think about the following: A web site that lists Users'Groups [all kinds, flavors, etc.] A web site that lists web sites [supporters] A web site that lists individuals [supporters] The name of the web site: The Linux Army On this page, those who agree to the following are listed: 1] Agree to open their sites to SPAM and cross-posting messages for TAKE ACTION events 2] All messages with EFF will be posted for list members of Users' Groups, web sites and individuals [upon moderator approval] 3] All members of The Linux Army will set up a folder on their mail clients to receive all messages with EFF in the Subject Line, so as not to have an undue amount of cross-posting and SPAM messages in their Inboxes. 4] Now, whenever there are ACTIONS TO TAKE, the hundreds of thousands of members of The Linux Army are alerted, and can, in most cases, with just three clicks, "Do Their Duty". Slashdot is good for what it does, and The Linux Army, ugly as the SPAM aspect is, needs to be alerted to TAKE ACTION when needed. The only way to do that is to agree to a SPAM arrangement. There's a sample page at: http://www.studioforrecording.org/linuxarmy.html If the idea is viable, then the next step is to decide who best to host the site? Thanks, Tom Poe Open Studios Reno, NV Seth Johnson wrote: > Seth Finkelstein wrote: > >> Well, what works? I must admit I've not had a >>great deal of success myself. Maybe there's nothing we >>can do. I don't claim to be an expert at such >>convincing. I'm only sharing empirical problems I've >>encountered from my own experiences in trying to >>convince skeptical people. If the world is divided into >>the unconvertable, and the choir singing >>they're-coming-to-take-us-away, that's disheartening. > > > Actually, organizing is best done by pitching to the choir. > The key is to show those who agree with you something in > motion, and thereby find the ones who are looking for > something real to be a part of. That's how you recruit the > leaders and build a movement. Organizers "call to emulate." > > It isn't about spin or consciousness-raising, which the > "preaching to the choir" line implies, whenever you hear it > brought against you. > > Seth Johnson > -- http://www.studioforrecording.org/ http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ -- Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org and register for the TAKE ACTION page. If you can donate $5, that'll help, too -- From jays at panix.com Thu Aug 8 21:46:01 2002 From: jays at panix.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: <3D53451A.6030306@renonevada.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, tompoe@renonevada.net wrote: > Hi: Let's see what you folks think about the following: > A web site that lists Users'Groups [all kinds, flavors, etc.] > A web site that lists web sites [supporters] > A web site that lists individuals [supporters] > > The name of the web site: The Linux Army This is close to something I have been considering. It is an important thing to do. We should have been at today's FCC meeting. More than a simple alert system is needed. Organization, planning, discipline, and experience will help us. Tom, I love your stuff and this idea. but I have one objection: The name is wrong. Not "Linux", and not even "GNU/Linux". Perhaps not even "Free Software". Right now I do not have a name I like, but I often use the phrase "owners and makers". "stakeholders" is also a good word. The Englobulators plots', if successful, will trammel us as "consumers", but they will do worse to us as owners and makers: they will end our rights to own and make and distribute our own stuff. Also we need not allow any SPAM whatsoever. We can quickly distribute information to many centers without allowing SPAM. We may not even need so much bandwidth that many distribution points are required. Perhaps a mailing list with an archive which we allow to be mirrored, subject, of course, to our strict license, and partly secured by standard cryptographic means ;) oo--JS. > > On this page, those who agree to the following are listed: > 1] Agree to open their sites to SPAM and cross-posting messages for TAKE > ACTION events > 2] All messages with EFF will be posted for list members of Users' > Groups, web sites and individuals [upon moderator approval] > 3] All members of The Linux Army will set up a folder on their mail > clients to receive all messages with EFF in the Subject Line, so as not > to have an undue amount of cross-posting and SPAM messages in their Inboxes. > 4] Now, whenever there are ACTIONS TO TAKE, the hundreds of thousands of > members of The Linux Army are alerted, and can, in most cases, with just > three clicks, "Do Their Duty". > > Slashdot is good for what it does, and The Linux Army, ugly as the SPAM > aspect is, needs to be alerted to TAKE ACTION when needed. The only way > to do that is to agree to a SPAM arrangement. > > There's a sample page at: > http://www.studioforrecording.org/linuxarmy.html > > If the idea is viable, then the next step is to decide who best to host > the site? > Thanks, > Tom Poe > Open Studios > Reno, NV > > Seth Johnson wrote: > > Seth Finkelstein wrote: > > > >> Well, what works? I must admit I've not had a > >>great deal of success myself. Maybe there's nothing we > >>can do. I don't claim to be an expert at such > >>convincing. I'm only sharing empirical problems I've > >>encountered from my own experiences in trying to > >>convince skeptical people. If the world is divided into > >>the unconvertable, and the choir singing > >>they're-coming-to-take-us-away, that's disheartening. > > > > > > Actually, organizing is best done by pitching to the choir. > > The key is to show those who agree with you something in > > motion, and thereby find the ones who are looking for > > something real to be a part of. That's how you recruit the > > leaders and build a movement. Organizers "call to emulate." > > > > It isn't about spin or consciousness-raising, which the > > "preaching to the choir" line implies, whenever you hear it > > brought against you. > > > > Seth Johnson > > > > > -- > http://www.studioforrecording.org/ > http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ > http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ > -- > Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org > and register for the TAKE ACTION page. > If you can donate $5, that'll help, too > -- > > > _______________________________________________ > free-sklyarov mailing list > free-sklyarov@zork.net > http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > From proclus at gnu-darwin.org Thu Aug 8 22:01:40 2002 From: proclus at gnu-darwin.org (proclus@gnu-darwin.org) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020809050147.DD05CFC53@proclus.dyndns.org> How about "Freedom Axis"? I like the general idea to encompass groups who value free software, open standards, fair use, cryptography, privacy, etc. Speaking for myself, I already forward important alerts to the lists that I administrate, about 300 subscribers, plus free-skyarov sometimes. I don't consider it spam, because the subscribers have an expressed interest. I'm sure that others are doing likewise. How is this proposal different from what we are doing already? EFF action alerts, Politech, etc? How to do we avoid burnout and too much email? Regards, proclus http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ On 9 Aug, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > > > On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, tompoe@renonevada.net wrote: > >> Hi: Let's see what you folks think about the following: >> A web site that lists Users'Groups [all kinds, flavors, etc.] >> A web site that lists web sites [supporters] >> A web site that lists individuals [supporters] >> >> The name of the web site: The Linux Army > > This is close to something I have been considering. It is an important > thing to do. We should have been at today's FCC meeting. > > More than a simple alert system is needed. Organization, planning, > discipline, and experience will help us. > > Tom, I love your stuff and this idea. but I have one objection: > > The name is wrong. Not "Linux", and not even "GNU/Linux". Perhaps not > even "Free Software". Right now I do not have a name I like, but I often > use the phrase "owners and makers". "stakeholders" is also a good word. > The Englobulators plots', if successful, will trammel us as "consumers", but > they will do worse to us as owners and makers: they will end our rights to > own and make and distribute our own stuff. > > Also we need not allow any SPAM whatsoever. We can quickly distribute > information to many centers without allowing SPAM. We may not even need so > much bandwidth that many distribution points are required. Perhaps a > mailing list with an archive which we allow to be mirrored, subject, of > course, to our strict license, and partly secured by standard cryptographic > means ;) > > oo--JS. > > >> >> On this page, those who agree to the following are listed: >> 1] Agree to open their sites to SPAM and cross-posting messages for TAKE >> ACTION events >> 2] All messages with EFF will be posted for list members of Users' >> Groups, web sites and individuals [upon moderator approval] >> 3] All members of The Linux Army will set up a folder on their mail >> clients to receive all messages with EFF in the Subject Line, so as not >> to have an undue amount of cross-posting and SPAM messages in their Inboxes. >> 4] Now, whenever there are ACTIONS TO TAKE, the hundreds of thousands of >> members of The Linux Army are alerted, and can, in most cases, with just >> three clicks, "Do Their Duty". >> >> Slashdot is good for what it does, and The Linux Army, ugly as the SPAM >> aspect is, needs to be alerted to TAKE ACTION when needed. The only way >> to do that is to agree to a SPAM arrangement. >> >> There's a sample page at: >> http://www.studioforrecording.org/linuxarmy.html >> >> If the idea is viable, then the next step is to decide who best to host >> the site? >> Thanks, >> Tom Poe >> Open Studios >> Reno, NV >> >> Seth Johnson wrote: >> > Seth Finkelstein wrote: >> > >> >> Well, what works? I must admit I've not had a >> >>great deal of success myself. Maybe there's nothing we >> >>can do. I don't claim to be an expert at such >> >>convincing. I'm only sharing empirical problems I've >> >>encountered from my own experiences in trying to >> >>convince skeptical people. If the world is divided into >> >>the unconvertable, and the choir singing >> >>they're-coming-to-take-us-away, that's disheartening. >> > >> > >> > Actually, organizing is best done by pitching to the choir. >> > The key is to show those who agree with you something in >> > motion, and thereby find the ones who are looking for >> > something real to be a part of. That's how you recruit the >> > leaders and build a movement. Organizers "call to emulate." >> > >> > It isn't about spin or consciousness-raising, which the >> > "preaching to the choir" line implies, whenever you hear it >> > brought against you. >> > >> > Seth Johnson >> > >> >> >> -- >> http://www.studioforrecording.org/ >> http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ >> http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ >> -- >> Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org >> and register for the TAKE ACTION page. >> If you can donate $5, that'll help, too >> -- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> free-sklyarov mailing list >> free-sklyarov@zork.net >> http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov >> > > > _______________________________________________ > free-sklyarov mailing list > free-sklyarov@zork.net > http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a+ C++++ UBOULI++++$ P+ L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-(--)@ b !DI D- G e++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://frotz.zork.net/pipermail/free-sklyarov/attachments/20020809/510cc498/attachment.pgp From tompoe at renonevada.net Thu Aug 8 22:13:44 2002 From: tompoe at renonevada.net (tompoe@renonevada.net) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:54 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions References: <20020809050147.DD05CFC53@proclus.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <3D534F88.8020805@renonevada.net> Hi: good question. This proposal is different in that the goal is to unify the TAKE ACTION aspects of discussion. For example, the EFF folks have a web page that says, TAKE ACTION. There are other sites that have a web page that says, TAKE ACTION. I take action, then I can't remember what action I took. I can't remember what page to go to to check. What we need is organization, - - - - as Jay points out. Now, when you post to your lists, that's the idea. Let's expand and be able to point to a wide range of lists, a wide variety of touch points, so that a big, significant action happens all at once. I think Jay has a point about the SPAM. On the other hand, I don't think it serves much purpose if a singular message is posted on each list, and that's the end of it. I think the need to post and cross-post, and make sure people recognize something is happening is necessary. Thanks, Tom Poe Open Studios Reno, NV proclus@gnu-darwin.org wrote: > How about "Freedom Axis"? I like the general idea to encompass groups > who value free software, open standards, fair use, cryptography, > privacy, etc. Speaking for myself, I already forward important alerts > to the lists that I administrate, about 300 subscribers, plus > free-skyarov sometimes. I don't consider it spam, because the > subscribers have an expressed interest. I'm sure that others are doing > likewise. > > How is this proposal different from what we are doing already? EFF > action alerts, Politech, etc? How to do we avoid burnout and too much > email? > > Regards, > proclus > http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ > > On 9 Aug, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > >> >>On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, tompoe@renonevada.net wrote: >> >> >>>Hi: Let's see what you folks think about the following: >>>A web site that lists Users'Groups [all kinds, flavors, etc.] >>>A web site that lists web sites [supporters] >>>A web site that lists individuals [supporters] >>> >>>The name of the web site: The Linux Army >> >>This is close to something I have been considering. It is an important >>thing to do. We should have been at today's FCC meeting. >> >>More than a simple alert system is needed. Organization, planning, >>discipline, and experience will help us. >> >>Tom, I love your stuff and this idea. but I have one objection: >> >>The name is wrong. Not "Linux", and not even "GNU/Linux". Perhaps not >>even "Free Software". Right now I do not have a name I like, but I often >>use the phrase "owners and makers". "stakeholders" is also a good word. >>The Englobulators plots', if successful, will trammel us as "consumers", but >>they will do worse to us as owners and makers: they will end our rights to >>own and make and distribute our own stuff. >> >>Also we need not allow any SPAM whatsoever. We can quickly distribute >>information to many centers without allowing SPAM. We may not even need so >>much bandwidth that many distribution points are required. Perhaps a >>mailing list with an archive which we allow to be mirrored, subject, of >>course, to our strict license, and partly secured by standard cryptographic >>means ;) >> >>oo--JS. >> >> >> >>>On this page, those who agree to the following are listed: >>>1] Agree to open their sites to SPAM and cross-posting messages for TAKE >>>ACTION events >>>2] All messages with EFF will be posted for list members of Users' >>>Groups, web sites and individuals [upon moderator approval] >>>3] All members of The Linux Army will set up a folder on their mail >>>clients to receive all messages with EFF in the Subject Line, so as not >>>to have an undue amount of cross-posting and SPAM messages in their Inboxes. >>>4] Now, whenever there are ACTIONS TO TAKE, the hundreds of thousands of >>>members of The Linux Army are alerted, and can, in most cases, with just >>>three clicks, "Do Their Duty". >>> >>>Slashdot is good for what it does, and The Linux Army, ugly as the SPAM >>>aspect is, needs to be alerted to TAKE ACTION when needed. The only way >>>to do that is to agree to a SPAM arrangement. >>> >>>There's a sample page at: >>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/linuxarmy.html >>> >>>If the idea is viable, then the next step is to decide who best to host >>>the site? >>>Thanks, >>>Tom Poe >>>Open Studios >>>Reno, NV >>> >>>Seth Johnson wrote: >>> >>>>Seth Finkelstein wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Well, what works? I must admit I've not had a >>>>>great deal of success myself. Maybe there's nothing we >>>>>can do. I don't claim to be an expert at such >>>>>convincing. I'm only sharing empirical problems I've >>>>>encountered from my own experiences in trying to >>>>>convince skeptical people. If the world is divided into >>>>>the unconvertable, and the choir singing >>>>>they're-coming-to-take-us-away, that's disheartening. >>>> >>>> >>>>Actually, organizing is best done by pitching to the choir. >>>>The key is to show those who agree with you something in >>>>motion, and thereby find the ones who are looking for >>>>something real to be a part of. That's how you recruit the >>>>leaders and build a movement. Organizers "call to emulate." >>>> >>>>It isn't about spin or consciousness-raising, which the >>>>"preaching to the choir" line implies, whenever you hear it >>>>brought against you. >>>> >>>>Seth Johnson >>>> >>> >>> >>>-- >>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/ >>>http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ >>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ >>>-- >>>Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org >>>and register for the TAKE ACTION page. >>>If you can donate $5, that'll help, too >>>-- >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>free-sklyarov mailing list >>>free-sklyarov@zork.net >>>http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov >>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>free-sklyarov mailing list >>free-sklyarov@zork.net >>http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > > -- http://www.studioforrecording.org/ http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ -- Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org and register for the TAKE ACTION page. If you can donate $5, that'll help, too -- From proclus at gnu-darwin.org Thu Aug 8 22:34:13 2002 From: proclus at gnu-darwin.org (proclus@gnu-darwin.org) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:54 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: <3D534F88.8020805@renonevada.net> Message-ID: <20020809053427.8CE91FC73@proclus.dyndns.org> OK, let's say that I subscribe two GNU-Darwin lists to the Axis listserver (After checking off with the other GNU-Darwinists). Then alerts are automatically posted to the GNU-Darwinists, who have already agreed to receive them. They should be cryptographically signed, so that they can be verified. If half the people receiving this message were to do likewise, we would be reaching a good crowd. Axis should also subscribe itself to each member list, so that the alert messages can be verified. That should be easily automated. Regards, proclus http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ On 8 Aug, tompoe@renonevada.net wrote: > Hi: good question. This proposal is different in that the goal is to > unify the TAKE ACTION aspects of discussion. For example, the EFF folks > have a web page that says, TAKE ACTION. There are other sites that have > a web page that says, TAKE ACTION. I take action, then I can't remember > what action I took. I can't remember what page to go to to check. > > What we need is organization, - - - - as Jay points out. > > Now, when you post to your lists, that's the idea. Let's expand and be > able to point to a wide range of lists, a wide variety of touch points, > so that a big, significant action happens all at once. > > I think Jay has a point about the SPAM. On the other hand, I don't think > it serves much purpose if a singular message is posted on each list, and > that's the end of it. I think the need to post and cross-post, and make > sure people recognize something is happening is necessary. > Thanks, > Tom Poe > Open Studios > Reno, NV > > proclus@gnu-darwin.org wrote: >> How about "Freedom Axis"? I like the general idea to encompass groups >> who value free software, open standards, fair use, cryptography, >> privacy, etc. Speaking for myself, I already forward important alerts >> to the lists that I administrate, about 300 subscribers, plus >> free-skyarov sometimes. I don't consider it spam, because the >> subscribers have an expressed interest. I'm sure that others are doing >> likewise. >> >> How is this proposal different from what we are doing already? EFF >> action alerts, Politech, etc? How to do we avoid burnout and too much >> email? >> >> Regards, >> proclus >> http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ >> >> On 9 Aug, Jay Sulzberger wrote: >> >>> >>>On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, tompoe@renonevada.net wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Hi: Let's see what you folks think about the following: >>>>A web site that lists Users'Groups [all kinds, flavors, etc.] >>>>A web site that lists web sites [supporters] >>>>A web site that lists individuals [supporters] >>>> >>>>The name of the web site: The Linux Army >>> >>>This is close to something I have been considering. It is an important >>>thing to do. We should have been at today's FCC meeting. >>> >>>More than a simple alert system is needed. Organization, planning, >>>discipline, and experience will help us. >>> >>>Tom, I love your stuff and this idea. but I have one objection: >>> >>>The name is wrong. Not "Linux", and not even "GNU/Linux". Perhaps not >>>even "Free Software". Right now I do not have a name I like, but I often >>>use the phrase "owners and makers". "stakeholders" is also a good word. >>>The Englobulators plots', if successful, will trammel us as "consumers", but >>>they will do worse to us as owners and makers: they will end our rights to >>>own and make and distribute our own stuff. >>> >>>Also we need not allow any SPAM whatsoever. We can quickly distribute >>>information to many centers without allowing SPAM. We may not even need so >>>much bandwidth that many distribution points are required. Perhaps a >>>mailing list with an archive which we allow to be mirrored, subject, of >>>course, to our strict license, and partly secured by standard cryptographic >>>means ;) >>> >>>oo--JS. >>> >>> >>> >>>>On this page, those who agree to the following are listed: >>>>1] Agree to open their sites to SPAM and cross-posting messages for TAKE >>>>ACTION events >>>>2] All messages with EFF will be posted for list members of Users' >>>>Groups, web sites and individuals [upon moderator approval] >>>>3] All members of The Linux Army will set up a folder on their mail >>>>clients to receive all messages with EFF in the Subject Line, so as not >>>>to have an undue amount of cross-posting and SPAM messages in their Inboxes. >>>>4] Now, whenever there are ACTIONS TO TAKE, the hundreds of thousands of >>>>members of The Linux Army are alerted, and can, in most cases, with just >>>>three clicks, "Do Their Duty". >>>> >>>>Slashdot is good for what it does, and The Linux Army, ugly as the SPAM >>>>aspect is, needs to be alerted to TAKE ACTION when needed. The only way >>>>to do that is to agree to a SPAM arrangement. >>>> >>>>There's a sample page at: >>>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/linuxarmy.html >>>> >>>>If the idea is viable, then the next step is to decide who best to host >>>>the site? >>>>Thanks, >>>>Tom Poe >>>>Open Studios >>>>Reno, NV >>>> >>>>Seth Johnson wrote: >>>> >>>>>Seth Finkelstein wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Well, what works? I must admit I've not had a >>>>>>great deal of success myself. Maybe there's nothing we >>>>>>can do. I don't claim to be an expert at such >>>>>>convincing. I'm only sharing empirical problems I've >>>>>>encountered from my own experiences in trying to >>>>>>convince skeptical people. If the world is divided into >>>>>>the unconvertable, and the choir singing >>>>>>they're-coming-to-take-us-away, that's disheartening. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Actually, organizing is best done by pitching to the choir. >>>>>The key is to show those who agree with you something in >>>>>motion, and thereby find the ones who are looking for >>>>>something real to be a part of. That's how you recruit the >>>>>leaders and build a movement. Organizers "call to emulate." >>>>> >>>>>It isn't about spin or consciousness-raising, which the >>>>>"preaching to the choir" line implies, whenever you hear it >>>>>brought against you. >>>>> >>>>>Seth Johnson >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>-- >>>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/ >>>>http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ >>>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ >>>>-- >>>>Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org >>>>and register for the TAKE ACTION page. >>>>If you can donate $5, that'll help, too >>>>-- >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>free-sklyarov mailing list >>>>free-sklyarov@zork.net >>>>http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov >>>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>free-sklyarov mailing list >>>free-sklyarov@zork.net >>>http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov >> >> > > -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a+ C++++ UBOULI++++$ P+ L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-(--)@ b !DI D- G e++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://frotz.zork.net/pipermail/free-sklyarov/attachments/20020809/dda0b8f9/attachment.pgp From seth.johnson at RealMeasures.dyndns.org Thu Aug 8 22:28:35 2002 From: seth.johnson at RealMeasures.dyndns.org (Seth Johnson) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:54 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions References: Message-ID: <3D535303.7A0DDEF@RealMeasures.dyndns.org> Jay Sulzberger wrote: > > The name is wrong. Not "Linux", and not even "GNU/Linux". > Perhaps not even "Free Software". Right now I do not have > a name I like, but I often use the phrase "owners and > makers". "stakeholders" is also a good word. The > Englobulators plots', if successful, will trammel us as > "consumers", but they will do worse to us as owners and > makers: they will end our rights to own and make and > distribute our own stuff. Information Citizens :-) Seth -- [CC] Counter-copyright: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/cc/cc.html I reserve no rights restricting copying, modification or distribution of this incidentally recorded communication. Original authorship should be attributed reasonably, but only so far as such an expectation might hold for usual practice in ordinary social discourse to which one holds no claim of exclusive rights. From proclus at gnu-darwin.org Thu Aug 8 22:46:47 2002 From: proclus at gnu-darwin.org (proclus@gnu-darwin.org) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:54 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: <3D535303.7A0DDEF@RealMeasures.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20020809054654.E068AFC94@proclus.dyndns.org> On 9 Aug, Seth Johnson wrote: > > Information Citizens Or Citizens Informed, Action Information System/Alliance. Regards, proclus http://www.gnu-darwin.org > > :-) > > Seth > -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a+ C++++ UBOULI++++$ P+ L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-(--)@ b !DI D- G e++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://frotz.zork.net/pipermail/free-sklyarov/attachments/20020809/d27d265c/attachment.pgp From ruben at mrbrklyn.com Thu Aug 8 22:58:08 2002 From: ruben at mrbrklyn.com (Ruben I Safir) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:54 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: ; from jays@panix.com on Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 00:46:01 -0400 References: <3D53451A.6030306@renonevada.net> Message-ID: <20020809015808.A4394@www2.mrbrklyn.com> << We should have been at today's FCC meeting.>> NO we shouldn't have. We'd just become as irrelevant as the rest of the folks who have been fighting this and been unsucceful until now. It's unimportant at this point, and would just overload our ability to focus on campians which we are better prepared to win and to raise the political issue. Some seem to not understand this yet. There trying to get you to become overloaded and unfocused, and hoping around from brush fire to brush fire feeds into their hands. Instead, we need to get the Fair Use bill written and onto the house floor, and do an end run around the beauracrats. Ruben -- __________________________ Brooklyn Linux Solutions __________________________ http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.nylxs.com/radio - Free Software Radio Show and Archives http://www.brooklynonline.com - For the love of Brooklyn http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www.nyfairuse.org - The foundation of Democracy http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/mp3/dr.mp3 - Imagine my surprise when I saw you... http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn.... 1-718-382-5752 From ruben at mrbrklyn.com Thu Aug 8 23:00:12 2002 From: ruben at mrbrklyn.com (Ruben I Safir) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:54 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: <3D534F88.8020805@renonevada.net>; from tompoe@renonevada.net on Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 01:13:44 -0400 References: <20020809050147.DD05CFC53@proclus.dyndns.org> <3D534F88.8020805@renonevada.net> Message-ID: <20020809020012.C4394@www2.mrbrklyn.com> defenitly count out NY Fair Use. The noise level is alreay too high. > > I think Jay has a point about the SPAM. On the other hand, I don't think > it serves much purpose if a singular message is posted on each list, and > that's the end of it. I think the need to post and cross-post, and make > sure people recognize something is happening is necessary. > Thanks, > Tom Poe > Open Studios > Reno, NV > > proclus@gnu-darwin.org wrote: > > How about "Freedom Axis"? I like the general idea to encompass groups > > who value free software, open standards, fair use, cryptography, > > privacy, etc. Speaking for myself, I already forward important alerts > > to the lists that I administrate, about 300 subscribers, plus > > free-skyarov sometimes. I don't consider it spam, because the > > subscribers have an expressed interest. I'm sure that others are doing > > likewise. > > > > How is this proposal different from what we are doing already? EFF > > action alerts, Politech, etc? How to do we avoid burnout and too much > > email? > > > > Regards, > > proclus > > http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ > > > > On 9 Aug, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > > > >> > >>On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, tompoe@renonevada.net wrote: > >> > >> > >>>Hi: Let's see what you folks think about the following: > >>>A web site that lists Users'Groups [all kinds, flavors, etc.] > >>>A web site that lists web sites [supporters] > >>>A web site that lists individuals [supporters] > >>> > >>>The name of the web site: The Linux Army > >> > >>This is close to something I have been considering. It is an important > >>thing to do. We should have been at today's FCC meeting. > >> > >>More than a simple alert system is needed. Organization, planning, > >>discipline, and experience will help us. > >> > >>Tom, I love your stuff and this idea. but I have one objection: > >> > >>The name is wrong. Not "Linux", and not even "GNU/Linux". Perhaps not > >>even "Free Software". Right now I do not have a name I like, but I often > >>use the phrase "owners and makers". "stakeholders" is also a good word. > >>The Englobulators plots', if successful, will trammel us as "consumers", but > >>they will do worse to us as owners and makers: they will end our rights to > >>own and make and distribute our own stuff. > >> > >>Also we need not allow any SPAM whatsoever. We can quickly distribute > >>information to many centers without allowing SPAM. We may not even need so > >>much bandwidth that many distribution points are required. Perhaps a > >>mailing list with an archive which we allow to be mirrored, subject, of > >>course, to our strict license, and partly secured by standard cryptographic > >>means ;) > >> > >>oo--JS. > >> > >> > >> > >>>On this page, those who agree to the following are listed: > >>>1] Agree to open their sites to SPAM and cross-posting messages for TAKE > >>>ACTION events > >>>2] All messages with EFF will be posted for list members of Users' > >>>Groups, web sites and individuals [upon moderator approval] > >>>3] All members of The Linux Army will set up a folder on their mail > >>>clients to receive all messages with EFF in the Subject Line, so as not > >>>to have an undue amount of cross-posting and SPAM messages in their Inboxes. > >>>4] Now, whenever there are ACTIONS TO TAKE, the hundreds of thousands of > >>>members of The Linux Army are alerted, and can, in most cases, with just > >>>three clicks, "Do Their Duty". > >>> > >>>Slashdot is good for what it does, and The Linux Army, ugly as the SPAM > >>>aspect is, needs to be alerted to TAKE ACTION when needed. The only way > >>>to do that is to agree to a SPAM arrangement. > >>> > >>>There's a sample page at: > >>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/linuxarmy.html > >>> > >>>If the idea is viable, then the next step is to decide who best to host > >>>the site? > >>>Thanks, > >>>Tom Poe > >>>Open Studios > >>>Reno, NV > >>> > >>>Seth Johnson wrote: > >>> > >>>>Seth Finkelstein wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> Well, what works? I must admit I've not had a > >>>>>great deal of success myself. Maybe there's nothing we > >>>>>can do. I don't claim to be an expert at such > >>>>>convincing. I'm only sharing empirical problems I've > >>>>>encountered from my own experiences in trying to > >>>>>convince skeptical people. If the world is divided into > >>>>>the unconvertable, and the choir singing > >>>>>they're-coming-to-take-us-away, that's disheartening. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>Actually, organizing is best done by pitching to the choir. > >>>>The key is to show those who agree with you something in > >>>>motion, and thereby find the ones who are looking for > >>>>something real to be a part of. That's how you recruit the > >>>>leaders and build a movement. Organizers "call to emulate." > >>>> > >>>>It isn't about spin or consciousness-raising, which the > >>>>"preaching to the choir" line implies, whenever you hear it > >>>>brought against you. > >>>> > >>>>Seth Johnson > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>>-- > >>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/ > >>>http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ > >>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ > >>>-- > >>>Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org > >>>and register for the TAKE ACTION page. > >>>If you can donate $5, that'll help, too > >>>-- > >>> > >>> > >>>_______________________________________________ > >>>free-sklyarov mailing list > >>>free-sklyarov@zork.net > >>>http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > >>> > >> > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>free-sklyarov mailing list > >>free-sklyarov@zork.net > >>http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > > > > > > > -- > http://www.studioforrecording.org/ > http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ > http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ > -- > Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org > and register for the TAKE ACTION page. > If you can donate $5, that'll help, too > -- > > > _______________________________________________ > free-sklyarov mailing list > free-sklyarov@zork.net > http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > -- __________________________ Brooklyn Linux Solutions __________________________ http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.nylxs.com/radio - Free Software Radio Show and Archives http://www.brooklynonline.com - For the love of Brooklyn http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www.nyfairuse.org - The foundation of Democracy http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/mp3/dr.mp3 - Imagine my surprise when I saw you... http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn.... 1-718-382-5752 From ruben at mrbrklyn.com Thu Aug 8 23:07:53 2002 From: ruben at mrbrklyn.com (Ruben I Safir) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:54 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: <3D534098.D926BA61@RealMeasures.dyndns.org>; from seth.johnson@RealMeasures.dyndns.org on Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 00:10:00 -0400 References: <3AF3DD5B-AB2F-11D6-B5ED-0003938C3EE0@speakeasy.net> <20020809001433.B27282@sethf.com> <3D534098.D926BA61@RealMeasures.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20020809020753.A4583@www2.mrbrklyn.com> Both are needed. Building in the choir and outreach. > Actually, organizing is best done by pitching to the choir. > The key is to show those who agree with you something in > motion, and thereby find the ones who are looking for > something real to be a part of. That's how you recruit the > leaders and build a movement. Organizers "call to emulate." > > It isn't about spin or consciousness-raising, which the > "preaching to the choir" line implies, whenever you hear it > brought against you. > > Seth Johnson > > -- > > [CC] Counter-copyright: > http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/cc/cc.html > > I reserve no rights restricting copying, modification or > distribution of this incidentally recorded communication. > Original authorship should be attributed reasonably, but > only so far as such an expectation might hold for usual > practice in ordinary social discourse to which one holds no > claim of exclusive rights. > > > _______________________________________________ > free-sklyarov mailing list > free-sklyarov@zork.net > http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > -- __________________________ Brooklyn Linux Solutions __________________________ http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.nylxs.com/radio - Free Software Radio Show and Archives http://www.brooklynonline.com - For the love of Brooklyn http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www.nyfairuse.org - The foundation of Democracy http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/mp3/dr.mp3 - Imagine my surprise when I saw you... http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn.... 1-718-382-5752 From proclus at gnu-darwin.org Thu Aug 8 23:09:25 2002 From: proclus at gnu-darwin.org (proclus@gnu-darwin.org) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:54 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: <20020809020012.C4394@www2.mrbrklyn.com> Message-ID: <20020809060932.13B26FCB1@proclus.dyndns.org> Ruben's point is important. A single message to each member group would be sufficient (then maybe nyfairuse will join ;-), and they can discuss a single message among themselves in a manner that is appropriate for their own group. There should be an opt-in mechanism for people who wish to become more involved in any particular action. I liked the way that Stakeholders 7/17 "sucked you in", when you replied to the alert. That gets you right into it, like free-skyarov was in the first days. Regards, proclus http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ On 9 Aug, Ruben I Safir wrote: > defenitly count out NY Fair Use. The noise level is alreay too high. > >> I think Jay has a point about the SPAM. On the other hand, I don't think >> it serves much purpose if a singular message is posted on each list, and >> that's the end of it. I think the need to post and cross-post, and make >> sure people recognize something is happening is necessary. >> Thanks, >> Tom Poe >> Open Studios >> Reno, NV >> >> proclus@gnu-darwin.org wrote: >> > How about "Freedom Axis"? I like the general idea to encompass groups >> > who value free software, open standards, fair use, cryptography, >> > privacy, etc. Speaking for myself, I already forward important alerts >> > to the lists that I administrate, about 300 subscribers, plus >> > free-skyarov sometimes. I don't consider it spam, because the >> > subscribers have an expressed interest. I'm sure that others are doing >> > likewise. >> > >> > How is this proposal different from what we are doing already? EFF >> > action alerts, Politech, etc? How to do we avoid burnout and too much >> > email? >> > >> > Regards, >> > proclus >> > http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ >> > >> > On 9 Aug, Jay Sulzberger wrote: >> > >> >> >> >>On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, tompoe@renonevada.net wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>>Hi: Let's see what you folks think about the following: >> >>>A web site that lists Users'Groups [all kinds, flavors, etc.] >> >>>A web site that lists web sites [supporters] >> >>>A web site that lists individuals [supporters] >> >>> >> >>>The name of the web site: The Linux Army >> >> >> >>This is close to something I have been considering. It is an important >> >>thing to do. We should have been at today's FCC meeting. >> >> >> >>More than a simple alert system is needed. Organization, planning, >> >>discipline, and experience will help us. >> >> >> >>Tom, I love your stuff and this idea. but I have one objection: >> >> >> >>The name is wrong. Not "Linux", and not even "GNU/Linux". Perhaps not >> >>even "Free Software". Right now I do not have a name I like, but I often >> >>use the phrase "owners and makers". "stakeholders" is also a good word. >> >>The Englobulators plots', if successful, will trammel us as "consumers", but >> >>they will do worse to us as owners and makers: they will end our rights to >> >>own and make and distribute our own stuff. >> >> >> >>Also we need not allow any SPAM whatsoever. We can quickly distribute >> >>information to many centers without allowing SPAM. We may not even need so >> >>much bandwidth that many distribution points are required. Perhaps a >> >>mailing list with an archive which we allow to be mirrored, subject, of >> >>course, to our strict license, and partly secured by standard cryptographic >> >>means ;) >> >> >> >>oo--JS. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>>On this page, those who agree to the following are listed: >> >>>1] Agree to open their sites to SPAM and cross-posting messages for TAKE >> >>>ACTION events >> >>>2] All messages with EFF will be posted for list members of Users' >> >>>Groups, web sites and individuals [upon moderator approval] >> >>>3] All members of The Linux Army will set up a folder on their mail >> >>>clients to receive all messages with EFF in the Subject Line, so as not >> >>>to have an undue amount of cross-posting and SPAM messages in their Inboxes. >> >>>4] Now, whenever there are ACTIONS TO TAKE, the hundreds of thousands of >> >>>members of The Linux Army are alerted, and can, in most cases, with just >> >>>three clicks, "Do Their Duty". >> >>> >> >>>Slashdot is good for what it does, and The Linux Army, ugly as the SPAM >> >>>aspect is, needs to be alerted to TAKE ACTION when needed. The only way >> >>>to do that is to agree to a SPAM arrangement. >> >>> >> >>>There's a sample page at: >> >>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/linuxarmy.html >> >>> >> >>>If the idea is viable, then the next step is to decide who best to host >> >>>the site? >> >>>Thanks, >> >>>Tom Poe >> >>>Open Studios >> >>>Reno, NV >> >>> >> >>>Seth Johnson wrote: >> >>> >> >>>>Seth Finkelstein wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>> Well, what works? I must admit I've not had a >> >>>>>great deal of success myself. Maybe there's nothing we >> >>>>>can do. I don't claim to be an expert at such >> >>>>>convincing. I'm only sharing empirical problems I've >> >>>>>encountered from my own experiences in trying to >> >>>>>convince skeptical people. If the world is divided into >> >>>>>the unconvertable, and the choir singing >> >>>>>they're-coming-to-take-us-away, that's disheartening. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>Actually, organizing is best done by pitching to the choir. >> >>>>The key is to show those who agree with you something in >> >>>>motion, and thereby find the ones who are looking for >> >>>>something real to be a part of. That's how you recruit the >> >>>>leaders and build a movement. Organizers "call to emulate." >> >>>> >> >>>>It isn't about spin or consciousness-raising, which the >> >>>>"preaching to the choir" line implies, whenever you hear it >> >>>>brought against you. >> >>>> >> >>>>Seth Johnson >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>-- >> >>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/ >> >>>http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ >> >>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ >> >>>-- >> >>>Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org >> >>>and register for the TAKE ACTION page. >> >>>If you can donate $5, that'll help, too >> >>>-- >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>_______________________________________________ >> >>>free-sklyarov mailing list >> >>>free-sklyarov@zork.net >> >>>http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >> >>free-sklyarov mailing list >> >>free-sklyarov@zork.net >> >>http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> http://www.studioforrecording.org/ >> http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ >> http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ >> -- >> Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org >> and register for the TAKE ACTION page. >> If you can donate $5, that'll help, too >> -- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> free-sklyarov mailing list >> free-sklyarov@zork.net >> http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov >> -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a+ C++++ UBOULI++++$ P+ L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-(--)@ b !DI D- G e++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://frotz.zork.net/pipermail/free-sklyarov/attachments/20020809/10338b45/attachment.pgp From ilya at theIlya.com Thu Aug 8 23:19:13 2002 From: ilya at theIlya.com (ilya@theIlya.com) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:54 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: <20020809001433.B27282@sethf.com> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, 9 Aug 2002, Seth Finkelstein wrote: > > On Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 08:30:39PM -0400, Matthew T. Russotto wrote: > > These "skeptics" are unconvincable, and there's no reason to base > > anything on their reaction. ... > > Well, what works? I must admit I've not had a great deal of > success myself. Maybe there's nothing we can do. I don't claim to be > an expert at such convincing. I'm only sharing empirical problems I've > encountered from my own experiences in trying to convince skeptical > people. If the world is divided into the unconvertable, and the choir > singing they're-coming-to-take-us-away, that's disheartening. Well, history shows there are no 'unconvincable' people. There are people who employ logic and thinking to form their views. These are obviously always convincable to degree of conming to reasonable solution. On the other hand there are pople, who don't use logic and thiinking to form their opinion. These people don't have tools to form opinion, and thus have to borrow opinion from somebody else. Thus whatever their authority says, they will just repeat. The question then is what kind of authorities can we find for groups of such people, and in what ways can we influence such authorities. 1. Youth. People who listen to music, watch Hollywood movies, etc. (Almost wrote read books...) Primary authority of interest, I would say, is artists in this case. Get some pop star say on stage he/she wants kids to trade MP3's of her songs on gnutella... Imagine results... Second authority is parents... Well, not much we can do here, as many of them will belong to 'skeptics', and were they don't, there is probably no need to worry about children. Teatchers. This is important group to think about. If there are any teatchers reading this, think how can you engage children in this debate. This will also engage parents, of course, which in turn will get lot more people aware and thinking... 2. Think of some other group of people, who bwlong to 'skeptics' category, and try to come up with possible authorities for them. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: pgpenvelope 2.9.0 - http://pgpenvelope.sourceforge.net/ iD8DBQE9U17m84S94bALfyURAjMfAJwJVmr4v3vFUAYfr9qyO/iMFrN7fACg1TYT qxDPEP1zB6DwNYyC/ODOTB8= =yNFs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ilya at theIlya.com Thu Aug 8 23:24:00 2002 From: ilya at theIlya.com (ilya@theIlya.com) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:54 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > The name is wrong. Not "Linux", and not even "GNU/Linux". Perhaps not > even "Free Software". Right now I do not have a name I like, but I often > use the phrase "owners and makers". "stakeholders" is also a good word. > The Englobulators plots', if successful, will trammel us as "consumers", but > they will do worse to us as owners and makers: they will end our rights to > own and make and distribute our own stuff. I agree with this. How about "The Netizen Army". Or even better "The Net Army" (Netizen is to soundalike to Natzi). "People Army" or something to that tune would also be appropriate :) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: pgpenvelope 2.9.0 - http://pgpenvelope.sourceforge.net/ iD8DBQE9U2AE84S94bALfyURAiI0AKDVT8ADF77Mp5M9cm54jK5cfNoF/ACeKMea fQEp7DxHZN51mWiwrMVmmCE= =NiBX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ilya at theIlya.com Thu Aug 8 23:39:34 2002 From: ilya at theIlya.com (ilya@theIlya.com) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:54 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: <20020809053427.8CE91FC73@proclus.dyndns.org> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, 9 Aug 2002 proclus@gnu-darwin.org wrote: > If half the people receiving this message > were to do likewise, we would be reaching a good crowd. I'm afraid you are overestimating our numbers. I think there are total of about 2000-3000 people reading *this* message. For action in one place in one time, this would be nice, but considering we are rather distributed, it will not be too noticable. Come on. Biggest crowd Free Sklyarov protests gathered was ~260 people or something? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: pgpenvelope 2.9.0 - http://pgpenvelope.sourceforge.net/ iD8DBQE9U2Oq84S94bALfyURAjC+AJ9Yz3OV+4LU6Pi9duj287+q46PsAACgtFKQ zhCjRfEeTJ7PZQWrHo+W0mw= =IHEf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From schoen at loyalty.org Fri Aug 9 00:05:27 2002 From: schoen at loyalty.org (Seth David Schoen) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:55 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: References: <20020809053427.8CE91FC73@proclus.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20020809070527.GY23240@zork.net> ilya@theIlya.com writes: > I'm afraid you are overestimating our numbers. I think there are total of > about 2000-3000 people reading *this* message. There are now 565 subscribers to free-sklyarov, down from a high of about 1,000. -- Seth David Schoen | Reading is a right, not a feature! http://www.loyalty.org/~schoen/ | -- Kathryn Myronuk http://vitanuova.loyalty.org/ | From ruben at mrbrklyn.com Fri Aug 9 00:12:21 2002 From: ruben at mrbrklyn.com (Ruben I Safir) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:55 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: <20020809060932.13B26FCB1@proclus.dyndns.org>; from proclus@gnu-darwin.org on Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 02:09:25 -0400 References: <20020809020012.C4394@www2.mrbrklyn.com> <20020809060932.13B26FCB1@proclus.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20020809031221.E4741@www2.mrbrklyn.com> NY Fair USe has a very specific program it is trying implement with the goal of obtaining real long term political results, which we hope in the end, will raise the conciousness of the general public. We are focused on Politcal Action through legistlation and the proper use of lexicon: We are the Stake Holders: DRM is Theft. For our purpose, we don't have either ability, funding or inclination to extend this by reacting to everything that haapens in the areana of digital rights in Washington. I want NY Fair Use to build a string of victories, and to raise it's profile, and we're not there yet. Other groups also have good things they want to do. But NY Fair Use doesn't have to be involved in every one of them. Nor do we have to agree with everyone. We have a reletively regmented organization. Frankly my biggest concern is the coming Novemenr Elections. Your CONGRESS PEOPLE ARE HOME NOW. Go find them and challenge them in a town hall meeting on these issues. If someone wishes to create an organization of group leaders, I'd be more inclined to participate in that. But I'm definetely telling everyone that NY Fair Use is not going to be taking leads or an action from EFF just because they ran their 43rd alert this week. Let EFF do what it wants to do. But we have our own leadership and CLEAR vision of what we want to do. Thanks Ruben On 2002.08.09 02:09 proclus@gnu-darwin.org wrote: > > Ruben's point is important. A single message to each member group > would be sufficient (then maybe nyfairuse will join ;-), and they can > discuss a single message among themselves in a manner that is > appropriate for their own group. > > There should be an opt-in mechanism for people who wish to become more > involved in any particular action. I liked the way that Stakeholders > 7/17 "sucked you in", when you replied to the alert. That gets you > right into it, like free-skyarov was in the first days. > > Regards, > proclus > http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ > > > On 9 Aug, Ruben I Safir wrote: > > defenitly count out NY Fair Use. The noise level is alreay too high. > > > >> I think Jay has a point about the SPAM. On the other hand, I don't think > >> it serves much purpose if a singular message is posted on each list, and > >> that's the end of it. I think the need to post and cross-post, and make > >> sure people recognize something is happening is necessary. > >> Thanks, > >> Tom Poe > >> Open Studios > >> Reno, NV > >> > >> proclus@gnu-darwin.org wrote: > >> > How about "Freedom Axis"? I like the general idea to encompass groups > >> > who value free software, open standards, fair use, cryptography, > >> > privacy, etc. Speaking for myself, I already forward important alerts > >> > to the lists that I administrate, about 300 subscribers, plus > >> > free-skyarov sometimes. I don't consider it spam, because the > >> > subscribers have an expressed interest. I'm sure that others are doing > >> > likewise. > >> > > >> > How is this proposal different from what we are doing already? EFF > >> > action alerts, Politech, etc? How to do we avoid burnout and too much > >> > email? > >> > > >> > Regards, > >> > proclus > >> > http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ > >> > > >> > On 9 Aug, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > >> > > >> >> > >> >>On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, tompoe@renonevada.net wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>>Hi: Let's see what you folks think about the following: > >> >>>A web site that lists Users'Groups [all kinds, flavors, etc.] > >> >>>A web site that lists web sites [supporters] > >> >>>A web site that lists individuals [supporters] > >> >>> > >> >>>The name of the web site: The Linux Army > >> >> > >> >>This is close to something I have been considering. It is an important > >> >>thing to do. We should have been at today's FCC meeting. > >> >> > >> >>More than a simple alert system is needed. Organization, planning, > >> >>discipline, and experience will help us. > >> >> > >> >>Tom, I love your stuff and this idea. but I have one objection: > >> >> > >> >>The name is wrong. Not "Linux", and not even "GNU/Linux". Perhaps not > >> >>even "Free Software". Right now I do not have a name I like, but I often > >> >>use the phrase "owners and makers". "stakeholders" is also a good word. > >> >>The Englobulators plots', if successful, will trammel us as "consumers", but > >> >>they will do worse to us as owners and makers: they will end our rights to > >> >>own and make and distribute our own stuff. > >> >> > >> >>Also we need not allow any SPAM whatsoever. We can quickly distribute > >> >>information to many centers without allowing SPAM. We may not even need so > >> >>much bandwidth that many distribution points are required. Perhaps a > >> >>mailing list with an archive which we allow to be mirrored, subject, of > >> >>course, to our strict license, and partly secured by standard cryptographic > >> >>means ;) > >> >> > >> >>oo--JS. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>>On this page, those who agree to the following are listed: > >> >>>1] Agree to open their sites to SPAM and cross-posting messages for TAKE > >> >>>ACTION events > >> >>>2] All messages with EFF will be posted for list members of Users' > >> >>>Groups, web sites and individuals [upon moderator approval] > >> >>>3] All members of The Linux Army will set up a folder on their mail > >> >>>clients to receive all messages with EFF in the Subject Line, so as not > >> >>>to have an undue amount of cross-posting and SPAM messages in their Inboxes. > >> >>>4] Now, whenever there are ACTIONS TO TAKE, the hundreds of thousands of > >> >>>members of The Linux Army are alerted, and can, in most cases, with just > >> >>>three clicks, "Do Their Duty". > >> >>> > >> >>>Slashdot is good for what it does, and The Linux Army, ugly as the SPAM > >> >>>aspect is, needs to be alerted to TAKE ACTION when needed. The only way > >> >>>to do that is to agree to a SPAM arrangement. > >> >>> > >> >>>There's a sample page at: > >> >>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/linuxarmy.html > >> >>> > >> >>>If the idea is viable, then the next step is to decide who best to host > >> >>>the site? > >> >>>Thanks, > >> >>>Tom Poe > >> >>>Open Studios > >> >>>Reno, NV > >> >>> > >> >>>Seth Johnson wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>>>Seth Finkelstein wrote: > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>>> Well, what works? I must admit I've not had a > >> >>>>>great deal of success myself. Maybe there's nothing we > >> >>>>>can do. I don't claim to be an expert at such > >> >>>>>convincing. I'm only sharing empirical problems I've > >> >>>>>encountered from my own experiences in trying to > >> >>>>>convince skeptical people. If the world is divided into > >> >>>>>the unconvertable, and the choir singing > >> >>>>>they're-coming-to-take-us-away, that's disheartening. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>>Actually, organizing is best done by pitching to the choir. > >> >>>>The key is to show those who agree with you something in > >> >>>>motion, and thereby find the ones who are looking for > >> >>>>something real to be a part of. That's how you recruit the > >> >>>>leaders and build a movement. Organizers "call to emulate." > >> >>>> > >> >>>>It isn't about spin or consciousness-raising, which the > >> >>>>"preaching to the choir" line implies, whenever you hear it > >> >>>>brought against you. > >> >>>> > >> >>>>Seth Johnson > >> >>>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>>-- > >> >>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/ > >> >>>http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ > >> >>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ > >> >>>-- > >> >>>Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org > >> >>>and register for the TAKE ACTION page. > >> >>>If you can donate $5, that'll help, too > >> >>>-- > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>>_______________________________________________ > >> >>>free-sklyarov mailing list > >> >>>free-sklyarov@zork.net > >> >>>http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>_______________________________________________ > >> >>free-sklyarov mailing list > >> >>free-sklyarov@zork.net > >> >>http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> -- > >> http://www.studioforrecording.org/ > >> http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ > >> http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ > >> -- > >> Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org > >> and register for the TAKE ACTION page. > >> If you can donate $5, that'll help, too > >> -- > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> free-sklyarov mailing list > >> free-sklyarov@zork.net > >> http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > >> > > -- > Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > Version: 3.1 > GMU/S d+@ s: a+ C++++ UBOULI++++$ P+ L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O > M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-(--)@ b !DI D- G e++++ > h--- r+++ y++++ > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ > > > -- __________________________ Brooklyn Linux Solutions __________________________ http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.nylxs.com/radio - Free Software Radio Show and Archives http://www.brooklynonline.com - For the love of Brooklyn http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www.nyfairuse.org - The foundation of Democracy http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/mp3/dr.mp3 - Imagine my surprise when I saw you... http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn.... 1-718-382-5752 From ruben at mrbrklyn.com Fri Aug 9 00:15:33 2002 From: ruben at mrbrklyn.com (Ruben I Safir) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:55 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: <20020809060932.13B26FCB1@proclus.dyndns.org>; from proclus@gnu-darwin.org on Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 02:09:25 -0400 References: <20020809020012.C4394@www2.mrbrklyn.com> <20020809060932.13B26FCB1@proclus.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20020809031533.G4741@www2.mrbrklyn.com> BTW - no to evanglilize: But that was possible because Seth and I were prepared for that oppurtunity and had our P&Q's in order with a program in place and ready to go. It didn't happen by magic. The reason why we took them by sprise was because we set up an ambush and Jack Valenti walked right in. If he does this a few more times, we're gonna win this BIG. > There should be an opt-in mechanism for people who wish to become more > involved in any particular action. I liked the way that Stakeholders > 7/17 "sucked you in", when you replied to the alert. That gets you > right into it, like free-skyarov was in the first days. > > -- __________________________ Brooklyn Linux Solutions __________________________ http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.nylxs.com/radio - Free Software Radio Show and Archives http://www.brooklynonline.com - For the love of Brooklyn http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www.nyfairuse.org - The foundation of Democracy http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/mp3/dr.mp3 - Imagine my surprise when I saw you... http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn.... 1-718-382-5752 From ruben at mrbrklyn.com Fri Aug 9 00:28:03 2002 From: ruben at mrbrklyn.com (Ruben I Safir) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:55 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: <20020809031533.G4741@www2.mrbrklyn.com>; from ruben@mrbrklyn.com on Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 03:15:33 -0400 References: <20020809020012.C4394@www2.mrbrklyn.com> <20020809060932.13B26FCB1@proclus.dyndns.org> <20020809031533.G4741@www2.mrbrklyn.com> Message-ID: <20020809032803.K4741@www2.mrbrklyn.com> This is the Kind of thing NY Fair Use is Focused on... In Response to Seth's wonderful post (listed below)Ruben Wrote: Well Done! We have to keep hammering it just like that, line for line on these arguements, just as they are laid out. Jack Valenti and July 17th, Washington DC, Department of Commercie DRM Workshop: "A little Demagogary Never Hurt anyone" Jack agian in 1982: "The VCR is to Movies like the Boston Strangler to Young Women" Ruben Safir: President of NYLXS and Co-Founder of NY Fair Use August 2002: "Jack Valanti is to Private Ownership and Property as the Boston Strangler to the VCR" Jack Valenti again at the DRM Workshop: "If this body connot find a way to agree to find a way which will protect private property from Theft then we'll just have to go to Congress and get it done" Ruben Safir at the Press Conference after the Workshop: "I completely agree with Jack Valenti. Congress has to step in and protect our private property from theft. It's my damn disk, my damn computer. If someone breaks into my home and steals my computer and my DVD's, who calls the cops and files the police report? Me or Universal Pictures? DRM is Theft. Congress must pass a law which will protect the property of every owner of a computer and purchaser of Digital Information by outlawing anything which prevents the full enjoyment of their property. We don't need prior aproval of Warner Brothers, Jack Valenti, or Barry Sorkin to use our computers to augment our enjoyment of our property. There is no forced contract to a cash sale. Forcing a contract on the public which they didn't negotiate as equal partners is a form of slavery no free citizen can put up with. That's why we propose a New Fair Use Bill, one which guarantees that Copyright is secondary to the Constitutional Right of Security in ones Home and with one's pocessions. Because Copyright is secondary to my property rights in my home and Congress has to make it clear. If anyone should be forced into a license, then Bertleson should be forced to License to Listen.com. That's why we gave them the limited exclussive Monopoly in the first place, to make sure the material is published. If they don't want to publish, too bad, make them do it anyway or strip them of their Monopoly. How can we can we continue to expect to maintain a free society if we can't accumulate, copy and archive on our digital systems and information. How are we expected to be able to publish from annotated facts, with references to the original works when everything on the internet can expire or disapear. We have to be able to copy to archive. It's essential to our politcal speech, or for that matter our abilty to have party music mixed to our own enjoyment on Saturday Night." On Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 12:20:44AM -0400, Seth Johnson wrote: > > > (I sent this to Declan but he didn't put it out on > POLITECH. You might want to read Charles Sims' comments > from POLITECH, pasted below, first. Sims represented the > movie studios against 2600 magazine. His comments were in > response to Declan's posting of Siva Vaidhyanathan's > Copyright Cudgel article. -- Seth) > > -------- Original Message -------- > Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 03:52:41 -0400 > From: Seth Johnson > To: declan@well.com > CC: politech@politechbot.com, sivav@pobox.com > > > Declan: > > Charles Sims' comments illustrate the problem of encouraging > people to equate the protection of private interests with > the issues surrounding content control. His emphasis on the > question of access in his final comment plays that card. > However, the issues surrounding the impact of content > control on the use of information, are not at all the same > as the issues associated with the protection of private > interests. > > Copyright (more specifically in Constitutional terms, > "exclusive Rights") is a limited, statutory right that > Congress may grant (or for that matter, deny) for specific > purposes (promoting the progress of the Useful Arts and > Sciences) and within specific parameters with which we are > all familiar (the First and Fourth Amendments ad nauseum, as > well as numerous other aspects of the US Constitution which > articulate rights that are *not* statutory and in that sense > limited in provenance). > > He also hangs his hat on the fact that under the current > statute, fair use is no more than an exception to copyright > (and only a defense that one may offer after the fact of > being prosecuted). In the service of his thesis that it is > supposedly fraudu