[free-sklyarov] FC: President Bush says military tribunals will try civilian cases (fwd)

Ilya Volynets ilya at theIlya.com
Sun Nov 18 20:44:39 PST 2001

Hash: SHA1

n Sunday 18 November 2001 07:32 pm, you wrote:
> At 11:06 PM 11/17/01 -0800, you wrote:
> >Hash: SHA1
> >
> >On Saturday 17 November 2001 10:31 pm, Ruben Safir wrote:
> >> I'll point it out, and also point out that it's in bad taste to compare
> >> the two.
> >>
> >> As far as I'm concerned, they can shoot the bastards straight up and
> >> skip the tribunals.
> >>
> >> On 2001.11.14 16:50:58 -0500 Don Marti wrote:
> >> >>begin Jei quotation of Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 11:32:46PM +0200:
> >> >>> Fast, secret non-public tribunals and executions for non-americans.
> >
> >Let me get this straight, Ruben. Are you saying that all non-americans
> > should be just shot? No wonder things like Sklyarov imprisonment happen
> > here.
> Ruben certainly did not say that "all non-americans should be shot".
> We have serious problems here in the USA but misreading statements
> like this won't help solve those problems.
OK. So, let's unmisread this. I'm seing two sentecnes:
1. Fast, secret non-public tribunals and executions for non-americans.
2. they can shoot the bastards straight up and skip the tribunals.

Taken out of context (as they were in original email) there is very
little choice of ways to understand them. And if you think that Mr. Ruben
didn't mean what he said, you are closer to wrong then to right. Even if
he didn't intend to, he said truth about his attitude. Just recall what
was happening to Arab people in US after 11th.

====================================Second message=====================

> bastards == "Bin Laden and Al Qeda" 
> bastards != Dmitry

> Ruben expressed himself clearly although using pronouns often leads to 
> confusion. Nowhere is he saying that "all non-americans should be shot".
See above...

> That is a complete misreading of what Ruben said. I am not surprised
> that he would be offended that anyone could so distort his statement 
> into such a meaning. OTOH it was perhaps a simple misreading. Was it? 
Maybe. But as I said, even if he didn't mean to say it, he did. Before I
go on any further, I want to make a few notes, just FYI.
1. I'm myself is US citizen, and I became one out of my free will.
2. I'm jewish, and have many friends and relatives in Israel, and probably
have less reasons to like Arabs then most of people here.
Now, what I (and many others) see in US, is very bad attitude towards
non-americans. Probably it doesn't apply to everyone, but it does
apply to many enough, to create a stereotype of fat, over-self-confident
uneducated bag of money... Sorry, if this didn't sound pleasant, but it
is truth, that I experienced myself, when traveling to Europe.

> The secret tribunals are supposedly targeted at Bin Laden and Al Qeda.
It doesn't make them any more legal or acceptable to me.

> Some of us may well fear that the government will overreach and apply
> this power in cases like Dmitry's. I hope not, but feel we must be vigilant.
Everyone has right to trial. You can't fight evil with evil.

> Others may doubt the responsility of Bin Laden and Al Qeda for the events 
> of Sept 11. Nonetheless, I must say that I won't lose any sleep if they 
> shoot the "bastards".
And here is the problem. You won't loose any sleep for one group of people,
somebody else won't loose any sleep for another... Initially I thought this
topic is not relevant to freeing Dmitry, but now I see that even on this list
general attitude towards lawfullness is an issue. If we accept killing arabs
as acceptable policy, even though, it is against human rights, I do not see
why we should reject any other violations of lesser laws.

> Indeed it would be a much better solution then 
> secret tribunals which can be used far too easily for other purposes. 
Just shooting people can be used for other purposes much easier.

> I live in California, often work in Mexico, and am more effected by absurdites 
> of "security" at the border with Mexico then the WTC disaster, but Ruben is 
> in Brooklyn, close to that scene, and has probably earned a right to some 
> strong feelings about that subject. There was certainly no trial or due process 
> available to the victims of the WTC destruction. See that smoke. That is them. 
If our purpose was to express our regrets about those people, I'd say you did
a very good job, but if our purpose is to free dmitry, we should think about
adjusting our attitude instead.

> I don't see the need to pillory Ruben for expressing those strong feelings.
And I don't see how expressing those strong feelings will help to resolve
the situation. I have a relative that thinks all islamic countries should be
just nuked, and she has very good reasons to *feel* so. Should I just accept
that, or should I keep trying to convince her this is not a solution, and that
feelings are not substitutte for reasoning?

> The USA in alliance with a number of other nations is after all killing people
> every day as a direct result of the event on Sept 11. Not all of that killing 
> is passion free calculation.
That's my point. US just keeps killing other people. (OTOH, I have to admit,
that reaction is far more reasonable then I expected).

> If we condemn Ruben then we must also condemn a very large number of people.
I am nowhere condemning anyone. I just want people to try to solve the problem,
rather then just waste bandwidth with expression of anger.

> Given the circumstances I am willing to ask the
> Ruben's of this world to look beyond this evil toward a better outcome
> but I am also unwilling to condemn them for their natural human passions. 
Unfortunately these "Human Passions" grow from same roots, as those that
resulted in Sklyarov's imprisonment. Rather then asking these people to
look beyond this evil, I'd ask them to look behind their backs, at actions
of their government during last century, that lead to 11th. Do you think it
is accidental, that target of action was US? Not GB, not France, not Germany?

So, please, next time, before you want to let you passions out into this big
world, first think in what ways are you better then those you wnat to condemn,
and second, think how you can make those people as good as you are.

> Bob La Quey
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