From rkillingsworth at compuserve.com Thu Aug 1 12:47:09 2002 From: rkillingsworth at compuserve.com (Robert Killingsworth) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:52 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Re: free-sklyarov digest, Vol 1 #384 - 2 msgs References: <20020801113250.14227.90893.Mailman@zork.zork.net> Message-ID: <008b01c23994$71e0dbe0$667ba8c0@attbi.com> << Mr. McCullagh was there at the Information Hiding Workshop when the Felten paper was withdrawn. >> Xcott, Declan did say "research related to computer security". The Felten paper was about cracking SDMI and watermarks, not computer security. Bob From jok707s at smsu.edu Fri Aug 2 03:29:56 2002 From: jok707s at smsu.edu (jok707s@smsu.edu) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:52 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Frankentoons Message-ID: <3D4AD0FE@caliber> In case anyone reading this has not seen the Frankentoons yet, here's the URL: http://www.libr.org/frankentoons/ The month of August marks the end of the third year that the Frankentoon site has been continuously online at its current location without any legal challenges. As noted on the site, Frankentoons can be handy for a wide variety of uses; for example, they can be appropriate images to put on signs to carry during those street protests in Moscow and other locations. :-) Use your imagination, and Happy Frankentooning. Joel Kahn * * * * * * * * * * * "The world is dense with micro-miracles." -- David Gelernter, _Drawing Life: Surviving the Unabomber_, 1997 From rkillingsworth at compuserve.com Fri Aug 2 04:01:32 2002 From: rkillingsworth at compuserve.com (Robert Killingsworth) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:52 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Re: Security warning draws DMCA threat Message-ID: <007b01c23a13$f84bc4e0$667ba8c0@attbi.com> << Mr. McCullagh was there at the Information Hiding Workshop when the Felten paper was withdrawn. >> Xcott, Declan did say "research related to computer security". The Felten paper was about cracking SDMI and watermarks, not computer security. Bob From lists at politechbot.com Fri Aug 2 22:51:09 2002 From: lists at politechbot.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:52 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Security warning draws DMCA threat In-Reply-To: ; from sacraver@EE.Princeton.EDU on Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 10:56:50AM -0400 References: <1177500239.20020731150426@elcomsoft.com> Message-ID: <20020803015109.B29506@cluebot.com> Ah, not a typo. Felten & co were addressing a different topic. I mention that case further down in the article. -Declan On Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 10:56:50AM -0400, Xcott Craver wrote: > On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, Vladimir Katalov wrote: > > > By Declan McCullagh > > Staff Writer, CNET News.com > > > > HP's dramatic warning appears to be the first time the DMCA has been > > invoked to stifle research related to computer security. Until now, > > it's been used by copyright holders to pursue people who distribute > > computer programs that unlock copyrighted content such as DVDs or > > encrypted e-books. > > Ahem, *cough* *cough*. > > This must be a typo. Mr. McCullagh was there at the > Information Hiding Workshop when the Felten paper was withdrawn. > He also mentions Dr. Felten later in the article. > > -X > > > > > _______________________________________________ > free-sklyarov mailing list > free-sklyarov@zork.net > http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov From ruben at mrbrklyn.com Sat Aug 3 23:15:29 2002 From: ruben at mrbrklyn.com (Ruben I Safir) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:52 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Security warning draws DMCA threat In-Reply-To: <20020803015109.B29506@cluebot.com>; from lists@politechbot.com on Sat, Aug 03, 2002 at 01:51:09 -0400 References: <1177500239.20020731150426@elcomsoft.com> <20020803015109.B29506@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20020804021529.A8071@www2.mrbrklyn.com> Ech Does it matter? On 2002.08.03 01:51 Declan McCullagh wrote: > Ah, not a typo. Felten & co were addressing a different topic. I mention > that case further down in the article. > > -Declan > > > On Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 10:56:50AM -0400, Xcott Craver wrote: > > On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, Vladimir Katalov wrote: > > > > > By Declan McCullagh > > > Staff Writer, CNET News.com > > > > > > HP's dramatic warning appears to be the first time the DMCA has been > > > invoked to stifle research related to computer security. Until now, > > > it's been used by copyright holders to pursue people who distribute > > > computer programs that unlock copyrighted content such as DVDs or > > > encrypted e-books. > > > > Ahem, *cough* *cough*. > > > > This must be a typo. Mr. McCullagh was there at the > > Information Hiding Workshop when the Felten paper was withdrawn. > > He also mentions Dr. Felten later in the article. > > > > -X > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > free-sklyarov mailing list > > free-sklyarov@zork.net > > http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > > _______________________________________________ > free-sklyarov mailing list > free-sklyarov@zork.net > http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > -- __________________________ Brooklyn Linux Solutions __________________________ http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.nylxs.com/radio - Free Software Radio Show and Archives http://www.brooklynonline.com - For the love of Brooklyn http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www.nyfairuse.org - The foundation of Democracy http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/mp3/dr.mp3 - Imagine my surprise when I saw you... http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn.... 1-718-382-5752 From sethf at sethf.com Sun Aug 4 00:53:28 2002 From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:52 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Security warning draws DMCA threat In-Reply-To: <20020804021529.A8071@www2.mrbrklyn.com>; from ruben@mrbrklyn.com on Sun, Aug 04, 2002 at 02:15:29AM -0400 References: <1177500239.20020731150426@elcomsoft.com> <20020803015109.B29506@cluebot.com> <20020804021529.A8071@www2.mrbrklyn.com> Message-ID: <20020804035328.A27814@sethf.com> On Sun, Aug 04, 2002 at 02:15:29AM -0400, Ruben I Safir wrote: > Ech > > Does it matter? Think of it as history in the making. Along the lines of First man in space - Yuri Gagarin First American in space - Alan Shepard (not John Glenn, he was US first orbit) First woman in space - Valentina Tereshkova First American woman in space - Sally Ride Etc. - I got these from http://neurolab.jsc.nasa.gov/answ_pers.htm We're now working on: First programmer jailed from DMCA charges - Dmitry Sklyarov First American programmer jailed from DMCA charges - [to be determined] First (insert-type-here) research threatened by DMCA - Felten, SnoSoft, etc. I think I arguably have "First programmer chilled by the DMCA", since I was worried about it way back, regarding my anti-censorware work. And the Library Of Congress DMCA censorware exemption indicates that worry was valid (even now I'm dumping a lot of code-related anti-censorware work, since the DMCA censorware exemption doesn't cover code, and I *don't* want that first-American-jailed title :-( ) This could be an "amusing" list. We can look forward to: First programmer jailed from DMCA conviction (found guilty after trial) First academic researcher jailed from DMCA conviction ("conspiracy" counts?) First (different-type-here) research threatened by DMCA And so on. -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer sethf@sethf.com http://sethf.com Anticensorware Investigations - http://sethf.com/anticensorware/ Seth Finkelstein's Infothought list - http://sethf.com/infothought/ http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/19/technology/circuits/19HACK.html From sacraver at EE.Princeton.EDU Sun Aug 4 05:36:46 2002 From: sacraver at EE.Princeton.EDU (Xcott Craver) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:52 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Security warning draws DMCA threat In-Reply-To: <20020804035328.A27814@sethf.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Aug 2002, Seth Finkelstein wrote: > First programmer jailed from DMCA charges - Dmitry Sklyarov > First American programmer jailed from DMCA charges - [to be determined] > First (insert-type-here) research threatened by DMCA - Felten, SnoSoft, etc. While I personally am a bit of a cynic regarding the ultimate usefulness of watermarking, I generally regard steganography research (along with cryptography research) as falling under the general topic of computer/information security. The HP threat is actually a very important first: it's the first time the DMCA was used to censor research that had nothing whatsoever to do with copyright protection. This is important because we always worried that it would happen. Due to the broad nature of the DMCA, and the confusing nature of computer science concepts to the courts and legislature, companies are able to make any act of reverse-engineering, alteration, or unintended use of their product a DMCA violation. MicroSoft could sue software vendors whose product reads and writes Word files or WMF files, arguing that the file formats protect copyrighted materials. Of course, any cracked cipher could have been used as part of a DRM system. I guess here, HP was going to argue that their operating system was a copy protection mechanism??? When we fear that a law is too broad, there are critics who argue that we are presenting woulda-coulda scenarios that will not occur in real life. HP's threat may be the first real example of the extreme vagueness of the law. -X From sethf at sethf.com Sun Aug 4 07:26:03 2002 From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:52 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Security warning draws DMCA threat In-Reply-To: ; from sacraver@EE.Princeton.EDU on Sun, Aug 04, 2002 at 08:36:46AM -0400 References: <20020804035328.A27814@sethf.com> Message-ID: <20020804102603.A1219@sethf.com> > On Sun, 4 Aug 2002, Seth Finkelstein wrote: >> First programmer jailed from DMCA charges - Dmitry Sklyarov >> First American programmer jailed from DMCA charges - [to be determined] >> First (insert-type-here) research threatened by DMCA - Felten, SnoSoft, etc. On Sun, Aug 04, 2002 at 08:36:46AM -0400, Xcott Craver wrote: > While I personally am a bit of a cynic regarding the ultimate > usefulness of watermarking, I generally regard steganography > research (along with cryptography research) as falling under the > general topic of computer/information security. Well, be careful there ... consider "National Security". That is, it's possible to have a too-inclusive definition. > The HP threat is actually a very important first: it's the > first time the DMCA was used to censor research that had nothing > whatsoever to do with copyright protection. Good point. Though I haven't reviewed all past applications, someone will have to be first. > This is important because we always worried that it would happen. > Due to the broad nature of the DMCA, and the confusing nature of > computer science concepts to the courts and legislature, companies > are able to make any act of reverse-engineering, alteration, or > unintended use of their product a DMCA violation. Something bothers me here. I'm arguing against my own interests, but this phenomena isn't exactly DMCA-specific. For example, in the CyberPatrol censorware case, some of the charges used against the programmers were quite "creative", e.g.: http://www.eff.org/IP/DRM/Microsystems_v_Scandinavia_Online/20000316_verif_complaint.html COUNT V (Conversion against Jansson and Skala) 33. Defendants Jansson and Skala tortiously and unjustifiably converted Cyber Patrol for their own use. Charging "conversion" for reverse-engineering is almost exactly making "unintended use of their product" a violation. So it's really not something new with the DMCA. Rather, the DMCA is now yet another "kitchen-sink" charge. Hmm. So we have at least: First time DMCA used in threat against (insert-type-here) research First time DMCA used in court against (insert-type-here) research First time DMCA upheld in court against (insert-type-here) research > MicroSoft could sue software vendors whose product reads and writes > Word files or WMF files, arguing that the file formats protect > copyrighted materials. For pure formats, I think that would fail because of the following constraint: (B) a technological measure ''effectively controls access to a work'' if the measure, in the ordinary course of its operation, requires the application of information, or a process or a treatment, with the authority of the copyright owner, to gain ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ access to the work. Microsoft isn't the copyright owner of the files. > Of course, any cracked cipher could have been used as > part of a DRM system. I guess here, HP was going to argue that > their operating system was a copy protection mechanism??? Frankly, I don't think anyone thought that far ahead. This reads to me like someone was trying to intimidate as much as possible. > When we fear that a law is too broad, there are critics who argue > that we are presenting woulda-coulda scenarios that will not > occur in real life. HP's threat may be the first real example of > the extreme vagueness of the law. Let's call it "example of popularity as an intimidation tool". Otherwise, I suspect a skeptic will answer "You can threaten to sue anyone for anything, so this proves nothing". -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer sethf@sethf.com http://sethf.com Anticensorware Investigations - http://sethf.com/anticensorware/ Seth Finkelstein's Infothought list - http://sethf.com/infothought/ http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/19/technology/circuits/19HACK.html From ruben at mrbrklyn.com Sun Aug 4 11:27:15 2002 From: ruben at mrbrklyn.com (Ruben I Safir) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:52 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Please Pass along In-Reply-To: <20020804102603.A1219@sethf.com>; from sethf@sethf.com on Sun, Aug 04, 2002 at 10:26:03 -0400 References: <20020804035328.A27814@sethf.com> <20020804102603.A1219@sethf.com> Message-ID: <20020804142715.G16488@www2.mrbrklyn.com> I'm forwarding this because these classes pay for most of the NYLXS and NY Fair Use work Please pass this around. ________________________________________________________________________ Revised Class Schedule Free Software Institute REVISED Class Schedule for August: Classes $300 individually perl 1 and 2 bundle $550 GNU/Linux 1 Unix 1 bunlde $550 -> Students talking GNU/Linux 1 are require to purchase a computer used for the rest of the corse work Complete program package -> perl1, perl2, gnu/linux 1, unix 1, gnu/linux 2, unix 2 Database Programming 1, Introdution to Networking 1 $4000 Perl2 - Object Orientation in Perl ? Basic CGI Programming ? Database usage and SQL ? Building Database Web Applications with DBI ? Basic MYSQL administration and SQL ? Templating Web Design and Rapid Development with Perl ? Introduction to mod_perl ? Writing Basic Apache Tuesday at ASHA: 7:00PM - 11:00PM August 6th August 13th August 20th August 27th September 3rd Unix 1 - Unix Tool, find, locate, man, grep, AWK, sort, df, ls, gcc, make cp, ln, mv Permissions, tcp networking,route. Wednesday at Rozensweig and Maffia 7PM-11:00 August 7th August 14th August 21st Augisyt 28th September 4th Linux 2 - Apache Installation: Download Source Code untar make make install Configure Apache Apache root httpd.conf initiation startup script httpd processes htdocs directory mysql installation Download source untar make install set initial permissions set up initiation file System monitoring tripwire system log monitoring top kill renice/nice last who w netstat route cron/crontab Port scanning/network security nmap inetd.conf tcp wrappersm- hosts.allow hosts.deny simple package forwarding, firewall, ipchains/NAT sshd,encrypted channels, VPN Thusdays - Brooklyn NYLXS Headquarters - 7PM-11:00PM August 8th August 15th August 21st August 28th September 5th Unix 2 - shell scripting, C programming, Desktop X Tuesdays NYLXS Headquarters - Brooklyn August 6th August 13th August 20th August 27th September 3rd ------------------------------ Total program for reference: Sylibus: Introduction to GNU/Linux Installation Boot Media, Kernels Hard Drives Partitions fdisk, type 82, type 83 swap partition mkswap, swapon, partition types, partition tables, /boot /home /usr /var file systems, ext2, reiser, ext3, mke2fs inodes, MBR Introduction to the Shell kernle ->getty -> login ->shell /etc/passwd adduser /etc/group Introduction to VI, vim, vi commands: command mode i =>insert o =>open a =>append dd=>delete g=>goto yy =>yank p=>paste jklim edit mode type and character into screen to go back to command mode execute mode :w write :q quit /search search :wq! at all costs 1,$s/old/new/g <== substitution globaly Basic Shell comands ls - directory listing cp - copy mv - move ls ru* - globing cat - cancatonate ps -auxw - see processes pstree - see process tree top - system report Directory tree files, ownership, group permissions Setting up X XF86Setup Knowing your video card Knowing your monitor sysinit - /etc/rc.d/init.d - turning services off and on network setup ipaddress host name domain gateway dns adding users - different on different systems /etc/passwd /etc/shadow ifconfig - see network connections modules - modprobe, demode, lsmod, kernel compile Introduction to unix Unix Tool, find, locate, man, grep, AWK, sort, df, ls, gcc, make cp, ln, mv Permissions, tcp networking,route. Introduction to Programming with Perl Advanced Unix2 shell scripting, C programming, Desktop X. Introduction to Apache: GNU/Linux 2 Install of mod perl, install of Apache, Install of embperl, and mason, basic apache configuration with files and virtual servers, etc Advanced Web Programming with Perl embperl, modperl, the apache request cycle, cgi's, html, forms, cookies and sessions Database Programming 1 MYSQL installation, Creating tables, performance evalutions, SQL seelcts, Inserts, user permissions, Perl DBI, C API. Introdution to Networking 1 REVIEW tcp/id, introduce mail, sendmail, bind, DNS, DHCP, SAMBA, NFS, SSH, ROUTE Ruben -- __________________________ Brooklyn Linux Solutions __________________________ http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.nylxs.com/radio - Free Software Radio Show and Archives http://www.brooklynonline.com - For the love of Brooklyn http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www.nyfairuse.org - The foundation of Democracy http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/mp3/dr.mp3 - Imagine my surprise when I saw you... http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn.... 1-718-382-5752 From schoen at loyalty.org Mon Aug 5 03:27:53 2002 From: schoen at loyalty.org (Seth David Schoen) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Please Pass along In-Reply-To: <20020804142715.G16488@www2.mrbrklyn.com> References: <20020804035328.A27814@sethf.com> <20020804102603.A1219@sethf.com> <20020804142715.G16488@www2.mrbrklyn.com> Message-ID: <20020805102753.GU2935@zork.net> Ruben I Safir writes: > I'm forwarding this because these classes pay for most of the NYLXS and NY Fair Use work > > Please pass this around. I don't consider this advertising appropriate for free-sklyarov. -- Seth David Schoen | Reading is a right, not a feature! http://www.loyalty.org/~schoen/ | -- Kathryn Myronuk http://vitanuova.loyalty.org/ | From jeme at brelin.net Mon Aug 5 19:32:37 2002 From: jeme at brelin.net (Jeme A Brelin) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Security warning draws DMCA threat In-Reply-To: <20020804102603.A1219@sethf.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Aug 2002, Seth Finkelstein wrote: > 33. Defendants Jansson and Skala tortiously and unjustifiably > converted Cyber Patrol for their own use. Tortious conversion? That's a new one by me. > For pure formats, I think that would fail because of the following > constraint: > > (B) a technological measure ''effectively controls access to a > work'' if the measure, in the ordinary course of its operation, > requires the application of information, or a process or a > treatment, with the authority of the copyright owner, to gain > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > access to the work. > > Microsoft isn't the copyright owner of the files. So? That's not what the law says. Microsoft is _A_ copyright holder for documents represented in SOME files held in Word format. I think that gives them standing to bring suit against anyone who "circumvents" the "access control" that is the Word document format. J. -- ----------------- Jeme A Brelin jeme@brelin.net ----------------- [cc] counter-copyright http://www.openlaw.org From sethf at sethf.com Mon Aug 5 20:39:58 2002 From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Security warning draws DMCA threat In-Reply-To: ; from jeme@brelin.net on Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 07:32:37PM -0700 References: <20020804102603.A1219@sethf.com> Message-ID: <20020805233958.A7822@sethf.com> > On Sun, 4 Aug 2002, Seth Finkelstein wrote: >> 33. Defendants Jansson and Skala tortiously and unjustifiably >> converted Cyber Patrol for their own use. > On Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 07:32:37PM -0700, Jeme A Brelin wrote: > Tortious conversion? That's a new one by me. There was also COUNT IV (Interference with Advantageous Business Relations against Jansson and Skala) 30. Defendants Jansson and Skala intentionally or recklessly interfered with Microsystems' relationships with third party users of Cyber Patrol. That is, making it less likely for people to buy the product was an offense :-). >> For pure formats, I think that would fail because of the following >> constraint: >> >> (B) a technological measure ''effectively controls access to a >> work'' if the measure, in the ordinary course of its operation, >> requires the application of information, or a process or a >> treatment, with the authority of the copyright owner, to gain >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> access to the work. >> >> Microsoft isn't the copyright owner of the files. > > So? That's not what the law says. > > Microsoft is _A_ copyright holder for documents represented in SOME files > held in Word format. I think that gives them standing to bring suit > against anyone who "circumvents" the "access control" that is the Word > document format. You have to establish that a general document format is an "access control" in the first place - that's where the constraint applies regarding "with the authority of the copyright owner". I think there's some confusion in that people have an idea that there must be a *specific* work which is *specifically* infringed, OR anything can be charged as any connection, no matter how tenuous, to infringement. The DMCA did change the law. It's enough to have a general proposition. That is, the requirement is *abstract*. One doesn't have to demonstrate any particular copyright is violated, just the violation of the DMCA's general propositions about the control of copyright holders. This is why Sklyarov was charged. But I don't see how a general file format fits, as something that relies on "the authority of the copyright owner", as a general proposition. I'm trying to be realistic here, in both directions (that is, what's likely-to-succeed, and what *isn't* likely-to-succeed). There's really two different aspects here that I'm trying to disentangle. One is the chilling effect of any legal threat itself, the kitchen-sink charges. These are the charges that companies make just because-they-can. They don't really expect them to hold up in court. The charges are in the threat letters just to scare and intimidate the target, and to inflict harm by causing the target legal expense to defend against them. This isn't new with the DMCA. It goes on all the time, e.g. the above "conversion" and "interference" charges in the CyberPatrol case. The other aspect is what's likely to stand up in court. For example, Felten, as a possibility, if the RIAA had pursued it. This is qualitatively different, in that the goal is using the law _per se_, not the attrition process of a lawsuit (of course, these two aren't exclusive, but I think it's a useful division). Basically, I think there's some situations where the law has changed *profoundly*, and others which are "just" same-old-legal-tactics. Both are chilling to programmers. But I worry that a skeptic will dismiss the DMCA situations where there have been profound changes (overturning the _Sony_ substantial non-infringing use standard), if those are conflated with situations of same-old-legal-tactics (throw charges, who cares if they fit, that's a detail, see if they stick). This is where I think it'll be a mistake to go down a path talking about everything-is-a-copy-control-device, and thus so-DMCA-applies-to-everything. No, that's an error in my view, and I fear it'll be dismissed as nonsensically alarmist. The point in the Elcomsoft case is that the DMCA doesn't require any specific copyright violation. But that doesn't mean everything under the sun having to do with computer security or formatting, is now a potential copyright-control violation. That's where I think a wrong turn was being made, into a straw-man that was going to be easy to demolish by DMCA proponents. Maybe I'm wrong. And I'm certainly bad at politics. My view here is affected by going through years and years of getting flack from critics about how I was imagining legal risk for my anti-censorware work, that lawsuits wouldn't happen, etc (it's less these days than years ago, but I'm *still* even getting some of that - maybe I'll benefit from Bruce Perens' recent DMCA pull-back). I like to have claims be as well-grounded as possible. Because I know how savage can be the attacks of critics that the possibility of prosecution is just a product of paranoia. -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer sethf@sethf.com http://sethf.com Anticensorware Investigations - http://sethf.com/anticensorware/ Seth Finkelstein's Infothought list - http://sethf.com/infothought/ http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/19/technology/circuits/19HACK.html From jewojcicki at cox.net Tue Aug 6 05:38:06 2002 From: jewojcicki at cox.net (Joseph E Wojcicki) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Take me off of this, SKYAROW MAILING LIST!! Message-ID: <000c01c23d46$1d7d4830$6401a8c0@cx2057082a> Plesae take me off of skyarow mailing list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://frotz.zork.net/pipermail/free-sklyarov/attachments/20020806/837d54fd/attachment.htm From schoen at loyalty.org Tue Aug 6 10:18:06 2002 From: schoen at loyalty.org (Seth David Schoen) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Take me off of this, SKYAROW MAILING LIST!! In-Reply-To: <000c01c23d46$1d7d4830$6401a8c0@cx2057082a> References: <000c01c23d46$1d7d4830$6401a8c0@cx2057082a> Message-ID: <20020806171806.GH23240@zork.net> Joseph E Wojcicki writes: > Plesae take me off of skyarow mailing list To remove yourself from free-sklyarov, follow the directions at the bottom of http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov/ If that doesn't work, you can contact free-sklyarov-admin@zork.net. -- Seth David Schoen | Reading is a right, not a feature! http://www.loyalty.org/~schoen/ | -- Kathryn Myronuk http://vitanuova.loyalty.org/ | From mickeym at mindspring.com Tue Aug 6 17:23:17 2002 From: mickeym at mindspring.com (mickey) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Security warning draws DMCA threat References: <20020804102603.A1219@sethf.com> <20020805233958.A7822@sethf.com> Message-ID: <3D506875.6000503@mindspring.com> Seth Finkelstein wrote: >But I don't >see how a general file format fits, as something that relies on "the >authority of the copyright owner", as a general proposition. > > I agree, but it 'fits' anyway because it sounds like complicated technology to most people. Granted, file formats can be complicated, and some are more wierd than others. Making a file format that is extremely wierd, like a DVD, is a hurdle more because it is not publicly documented rather than it's complexity. All file formats are complicated, and so is the software that uses them, and so is the machine on which it runs. All of it is technical, and if you consider using any of it as a measure to "protect" a set of data, then it is going to be covered by 1201. As in: File formats are complicated technologies. We made our files specially complicated to protect our investment. Now these hackers want to unleash their "cat" commands on our DVD movies. > This is where I think it'll be a mistake to go down a path >talking about everything-is-a-copy-control-device, and thus >so-DMCA-applies-to-everything. No, that's an error in my view, and I >fear it'll be dismissed as nonsensically alarmist. > > You are correct, it is being dismissed. Unfortunately, I think that the need for alarmism is coming. In the long term, I am concerned that most things in life will have a copy-control aspect because nearly everything is copyrightable or patentable. A sound, a picture, a story, a slogan, a shirt, a coffee mug, a lawn mower. Some of it is copyable at home now, others in time, and most things eventually. It used to be implied, at least it seemed that way to me, that the mechanism for enforcement of copyright law was meant to work primarily in the commercial arena. But what about personal use, at home? The present meanings of "gain" and "harm" are stretched so far that any application of the law can be imagined. The real fun, I think, will begin when we can buy a cheap printer that prints the blue jeans you scanned when they were new (or faded just right). What do you think, maybe ten years away? Mickey From rms at computerbytesman.com Wed Aug 7 09:25:53 2002 From: rms at computerbytesman.com (Richard M. Smith) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Tracking who is on the free-sklyarov email list In-Reply-To: <000c01c23d46$1d7d4830$6401a8c0@cx2057082a> Message-ID: <00f901c23e2f$1ca11920$6501a8c0@ne2.client2.attbi.com> Hi, Here's a quick note about the HTML email message which was sent yesterday to the list and was entitled "Take me off of this, SKYAROW MAILING LIST!!". The message was "bugged" to track who read the email message. The Web bug was the image of the postage stamp included in the message. The results of this tracking can be found here: http://www.havetheyreadityet.com/HaveTheyReadItYet/0/RHIE/EEUT/VJFD/EDBH /24eb1347-Enter.htm See ya, Richard M. Smith http://www.ComputerBytesMan.com ################################################################# ################################################################# ################################################################# ##### ##### ##### ################################################################# ################################################################# ################################################################# From mrussotto at speakeasy.net Wed Aug 7 20:21:31 2002 From: mrussotto at speakeasy.net (Matthew T. Russotto) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Security warning draws DMCA threat Message-ID: >> On Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 07:32:37PM -0700, Jeme A Brelin wrote: >> Tortious conversion? That's a new one by me. > There was also > COUNT IV > (Interference with Advantageous Business Relations against Jansson and Skala) > 30. Defendants Jansson and Skala intentionally or recklessly interfered > with Microsystems' relationships with third party users of Cyber Patrol. > That is, making it less likely for people to buy the product > was an offense :-). Tortious conversion is the civil version of theft. The "interference" tort is usually, IIRC (and IANAL) applied to cases where a third party interferes with a contract; that is, if A has a contract with B, and I know it and entice A to break that contract, I might have committed tortious interference. CyberPatrol's use of it seems a stretch. > You have to establish that a general document format is an > "access control" in the first place - that's where the constraint > applies regarding "with the authority of the copyright owner". Unfortunately, the line here is very thin. On the one side (I hope), we have formats like Word DOC, which is not encrypted, simply unknown. On the other side are formats like the Adobe eBook format and the DVD format, which are encrypted with the key provided separately. Somewhere in the untested middle are formats which are encrypted but with the key provided within the format. This is a non-empty set. Some PDF files fall into this category, for example. Suppose Microsoft were to make the next DOC format encrypted, but provide the encryption key within the document (perhaps obfuscated in some manner). Would writing a program which could read such DOCs fall under the DMCA? Would anyone dare to do so if Microsoft asserted it did, given the state of the courts today and given the potential penalties (5 years in prison for creating it, 5 years for marketing it, 5 years for trafficking in it -- for each sale). The courts, unfortunately, have given no indication that they'll interpret the DMCA narrowly. While I think HPs DMCA claim was way out in right field, there is certainly a tenuous DMCA argument to be made -- access controls on computer systems are (among other things) designed to keep one user from accessing another user's content. All original works are copyrighted upon fixation in a tangible medium, including a hard disk. So bypassing those measures by illicitly obtaining root could be seen as circumventing a technological protection controlling access to a copyrighted work. So, given the stakes -- that is, the end of your life as a free citizen if you lose -- who wants to be the test case? I understand your point -- that there are real DMCA abuses and there are those that are just invocations of the name "DMCA" to scare. But the problem is that the DMCA is so broadly written that most invocations of the name are likely to have a plausible argument behind them. And there isn't enough case law to determine which of those plausible arguments will be accepted -- and what case law there is, isn't good. About the only totally unjustified invocation was Blizzard's against bnetd, where they slammed directly into one of the explicit exceptions in DMCA 1201. But they then used the DMCA 512 automatic gag order provisions to shut down bnetd while they drag out a totally unjustified copyright lawsuit indefinitely, so it turned out to be DMCA abuse after all. (off-topic, the courts seem willing to accept all sorts of tenuous arguments to get "bad guys" nowadays -- witness the guy who drove a drunk driver to his car being charged, not with "accessory to drunk driving" or some other offense which might actually apply (probably because no such offense exists), but for manslaughter. Never should have made it to the jury, yet it did. Hackers are "bad guys" -- it's easy to connect the dots) From sethf at sethf.com Wed Aug 7 23:19:04 2002 From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Security warning draws DMCA threat In-Reply-To: ; from mrussotto@speakeasy.net on Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 11:21:31PM -0400 References: Message-ID: <20020808021904.A20637@sethf.com> On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 11:21:31PM -0400, Matthew T. Russotto wrote: > I understand your point -- that there are real DMCA abuses and there are > those that are just invocations of the name "DMCA" to scare. But the > problem is that the DMCA is so broadly written that most invocations of > the name are likely to have a plausible argument behind them. But this is true of many other laws too, such as various computer fraud and theft laws. In fact, even though the DMCA part of the HP letter received all the publicity, there was also threat under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, My point here is I fear a skeptic is going to reply in this case: "Ya, ya, you can threaten to sue anyone for anything. This DOES NOT mean there is a problem with the DMCA. It's just a problem with scare tactics. See, all it took was little publicity, and they backed-off. Stupid lawyers make stupid threats all the time, and it backfired on them and made the targets famous. It could happen with laws against theft, with fraud, with "conversion", and so on. The system is working just like it's supposed to do so. It doesn't show a DMCA problem at all, it shows a dumb HP lawyers problem, and you're all a bunch of paranoid hackers." And I worry that being vulnerable to such an easily made counter-argument is going to take away precious mind-share from the profound legal changes as demonstrated in the Sklyarov charges and Elcomsoft trial. Again, maybe I'm wrong, because I'm looking at it from the standpoint what I went through from *years* of trying to convince people about legal risk. You don't have to tell me about chilling effects. Remember, as I mentioned earlier, I've ended up dumping a lot of code-related anti-censorware work, since the DMCA censorware exemption doesn't cover code, and I *don't* want that first-American-jailed title :-( ). But when someone talks about the possibilities of prosecution to people who are *not* already members of the choir, I haven't found the reaction to be an immediate "My God! I never realized it was so bad!" Rather, some common reactions *by skeptics* are (not exhaustively): 1) You're paranoid, it won't happen, it's all in your fevered imagination. 2) The ACLU or the EFF will defend you, they live for this sort of thing. 3) Break the rules, get what you deserve. So my concern is that, perhaps counter-intuitively, this threat is not going to aid momentum for DMCA changes. And that too much focus on it as a DMCA poster-child is in fact going to *weaken* arguments against the DMCA, because it doesn't capture anything unique or new about the DMCA (being broadly written and used in threats is unfortunately *not* unique or new). -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer sethf@sethf.com http://sethf.com Anticensorware Investigations - http://sethf.com/anticensorware/ Seth Finkelstein's Infothought list - http://sethf.com/infothought/ http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/19/technology/circuits/19HACK.html From jok707s at smsu.edu Thu Aug 8 02:49:26 2002 From: jok707s at smsu.edu (jok707s@smsu.edu) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions Message-ID: <3D520EFF@caliber> Mickey's posting on Aug. 6 reveals some of the fundamental problems in the current "system," but I think that they need to be stated more explicitly. This planet has two huge industries that are essentially incompatible with each other. The older one, built around traditional copyright assumptions, is based on restricting what people can do with information; the newer one, tied to many advancing technologies (primarily electronic), rests on selling people tools that give them more and more power over information. Some companies are heavily involved in both halves of the dilemma at the very same time--Microsoft is probably the biggest example of this. Since the copyright-destroying effects of the new technologies crept up on the world (we all know how short-sighted raw greed can be), millions of jobs--indeed, many entire careers--became tied to each part of the contradiction before the overall problem became clearly visible, so a lot of people are solidly bound and determined to somehow have their cake and eat it too. There is just enough of a bare theoretical possibility of this to keep people trying. In reality, of course, no system of technology or law enforcement or both is going to be able to preserve the kind of environment that Michael Eisner, Jack Valenti, &c would like to see; it would require the kind of bizarre global totalitarian state that Franz Kafka and George Orwell might dream up if they dropped LSD together and tried to collaborate on a novel. However, a lot of bought-and-paid-for legislators are going to keep working for a long time on laws that will supposedly make it happen. The tragicomic mess will probably continue for quite a while before we see a total collapse of copyright. As so often happens, the biggest short-term beneficiaries will be the lawyers. Joel Kahn From jeme at brelin.net Thu Aug 8 04:51:43 2002 From: jeme at brelin.net (Jeme A Brelin) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: <3D520EFF@caliber> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, jok707s@smsu.edu wrote: > This planet has two huge industries that are essentially incompatible > with each other. The older one, built around traditional copyright > assumptions, is based on restricting what people can do with > information; the newer one, tied to many advancing technologies > (primarily electronic), rests on selling people tools that give them > more and more power over information. You've got this backwards. The "industry" of sharing information and providing people with tools to use and manipulate that information is as old as civilization itself. The newer idea is that information can be artificially restricted in order to increase scarcity and commodify a thing which is not material. The problem isn't that new technologies "destroy copyright". The problem is that, as with so many other ideas and ideals in our culture, the purpose has been lost and the means have become an end unto themselves. The goal was confused with the means by which we might attain the goal. The means was a restriction of the rights of all people but authors to meet the goal of reliable copies of works for posterity. Instead, the means has been re-rationalized as some kind of right in and of itself. This is very similar to the way the profit (the means by which Enlightenment values, such as increasing the efficiency and productivity of labor to provide more time for personal growth and education, might be realized, according to Adam Smith) was re-rationalized by the Capitalists as a goal in and of itself and democracy (another means by which Enlightenment values, such as self-determination, might be realized, according to folks like Thomas Jefferson) was re-rationalized by the Majority to be an goal in and of itself. The pattern repeats itself throughout our civilization since the 1790s. Copyright was extended again and again to include more and more types of information and an industry grew around these state sanctioned monopolies. Being monopolistic, the industries were extremely lucrative and hence grew in power and influence. Authors were put by the wayside in favor of "copyright holders". The industry lobbied to extend the restriction of rights beyond scientific works of authorship to the fine arts, thus crippling our culture, for it is the nature of fine art to feed off itself and the culture in which it develops. The rich and accurate domain of public information that was to be created by this means of copyright has been completely written out of the system by the industry's interests (much in the same way that the increase in leisure time was written out of the system by the interests of the profitmakers). Industry has an inherently democratizing aspect to it in that the demand of people to have power and control over their lives creates a drive in industry to meet that demand and provide tools that enhance that power and control. This is essentially why technology gets cheaper and easier to provide for a larger number of people. Power and control over information is no different. People have always had this and want more. Hence, we, as a civilization, develop technologies that enhance that power and control and work to bring those technologies to the masses. The fundamental conflict isn't between those who want to control information and those who want to spread it freely. That conflict is a side-effect of the true struggle. The true struggle is between those who would control the means of production of information and those who want to preserve their right to produce and share the products of their own creativity, insight, and investigation. The copyright industry recognizes that every tool that can be used to share and copy its restricted information can also be used to share AND PRODUCE unrestricted, public information. The use of public, unrestricted information decreases demand for private, restricted information. Using terms from the toolbox given to us by Marx, this is essentially a struggle by the masses to wrest the means of production from the clutches of the elite. > In reality, of course, no system of technology or law enforcement or > both is going to be able to preserve the kind of environment that > Michael Eisner, Jack Valenti, &c would like to see; it would require > the kind of bizarre global totalitarian state that Franz Kafka and > George Orwell might dream up if they dropped LSD together and tried to > collaborate on a novel. The hegemony of the United States is very like a global totalitarian state and the newly created Office of Homeland Security is very like something Kafka and Orwell might dream up if they dropped LSD together and tried to collaborate on realizing one of their nightmare imaginations. > However, a lot of bought-and-paid-for legislators are going to keep > working for a long time on laws that will supposedly make it happen. > The tragicomic mess will probably continue for quite a while before we > see a total collapse of copyright. This "total collapse of copyright" will not be an event that happens at some point in time. It is simply true that modern technology is making the industry that grew up around copyright exploitation irrelevant. Personally, I think the best solution to the copyright problem is the more widespread use of digital signatures and checksums. This means would also increase the reliability of the historical record as applied to news and information on the internet (consider that cnn.com will alter an article several times in one day and provides no method for assuring that a particular clipping ever appeared on their site). > As so often happens, the biggest short-term beneficiaries will be the > lawyers. I think this is more an expression of a personal bias and grudge than any kind of relevant observation. J. -- ----------------- Jeme A Brelin jeme@brelin.net ----------------- [cc] counter-copyright http://www.openlaw.org From tack at gaffle.com Thu Aug 8 05:36:30 2002 From: tack at gaffle.com (tack) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] bugging free sklyarov In-Reply-To: <20020808113302.31699.57372.Mailman@zork.zork.net> Message-ID: the best way to enumerate this is to send mail to this list. Personally, when I've sent stuff to this list, I've gotten bounces from blockbuster video accounts. Can't blame them for making people subscribe in the first place...."know your ememy, know yourself and in a hundred battles, you will not be in peril" -Sun Tzu. In any case...any person can join this list. So assume our foes are lurking. I've got a BBQ...if a bunch of SF fools want to get together to sign keys...where people can meet and vouch for each other, I'd be glad to host such an event. I also cook a mean london broil and have 2 bottle openers on me at any given time...even a corkscrew. reply off list, of course tack > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > From: "Richard M. Smith" > To: , > "'Joseph E Wojcicki'" > Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 12:25:53 -0400 > Subject: [free-sklyarov] Tracking who is on the free-sklyarov email list > > Hi, > > Here's a quick note about the HTML email message which was sent > yesterday to the list and was entitled "Take me off of this, SKYAROW > MAILING LIST!!". The message was "bugged" to track who read the email > message. The Web bug was the image of the postage stamp included in the > message. > > The results of this tracking can be found here: > > http://www.havetheyreadityet.com/HaveTheyReadItYet/0/RHIE/EEUT/VJFD/EDBH > /24eb1347-Enter.htm > > See ya, > Richard M. Smith > http://www.ComputerBytesMan.com From nick at zork.net Thu Aug 8 10:04:49 2002 From: nick at zork.net (Nick Moffitt) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Recent editorial Message-ID: <20020808170449.GL19372@zork.net> My mother passed this URL along to me http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,426427,00.asp > Now, you're probably asking, "Does His Hirsuteness really think > e-book hacking is worthy Katt fodder?" Well, it is when you consider > that the company posting the information is the employer of Dmitry > Sklyarov, the Russian programmer who was arrested last summer at the > Def Con convention in Las Vegas. Sklyarov was arrested under the > U.S. Digital Millennium Copyright Act for possession of his Advanced > eBook Proccessor software. Possession of the software, which was > capable of penetrating safeguards in Adobe's technology, got the > 27-year-old programmer indicted under a DMCA provision against > trafficking programs that circumvent technology protection. After > online protesters rallied to the Russian's defense, Adobe eventually > dropped its charges, and Sklyarov was allowed to go home. -- Jack Valenti is to the American film viewer and the American public as the Boston strangler is to the woman home alone. -- http://cryptome.org/hrcw-hear.htm (search for "Boston") From mrussotto at speakeasy.net Thu Aug 8 17:30:39 2002 From: mrussotto at speakeasy.net (Matthew T. Russotto) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions Message-ID: <3AF3DD5B-AB2F-11D6-B5ED-0003938C3EE0@speakeasy.net> On Thu, 8 Aug 2002 02:19:04 -0400, Seth Finkelstein wrote: > But when someone talks about the possibilities of prosecution > to people who are *not* already members of the choir, I haven't found > the reaction to be an immediate "My God! I never realized it was so bad!" > Rather, some common reactions *by skeptics* are (not exhaustively): > 1) You're paranoid, it won't happen, it's all in your fevered imagination. > 2) The ACLU or the EFF will defend you, they live for this sort of thing. > 3) Break the rules, get what you deserve. These "skeptics" are unconvincable, and there's no reason to base anything on their reaction. For any point on the continuum of "extremely unlikely DMCA use" to "certain DMCA use", they will give you one of those three answers. If, at any point, you find a position where they previously claimed was "utterly paranoid" and which someone has now been arrested or convicted for, they will simply switch from 1 to 3, perhaps passing through 2. You can't convince these people with arguments, nor with facts. They do not wish to believe that their government is capable of such nastiness, and so they will engage in any sort of doublethink to keep that disbelief. They are like Winston Smith's neighbor George in _1984_, who kept believing in Big Brother's benevolence even as he was imprisoned. In ten years, these same people will be saying "Of course you need a license to program a computer, it would be anarchy otherwise" -- and pointing out to them that no license was required in the recent past will be utterly futile. > So my concern is that, perhaps counter-intuitively, this threat > is not going to aid momentum for DMCA changes. And that too much focus > on it as a DMCA poster-child is in fact going to *weaken* arguments > against the DMCA, because it doesn't capture anything unique or new > about the DMCA (being broadly written and used in threats is > unfortunately *not* unique or new). So what can we use? Can't use Felten; that's a dead issue. Can't use 2600, because that's a nasty hacker magazine and anyway instructions aren't protected speech (oops, there goes that doublethink). Can't use Sklyarov, because he's a Russian and his company *sold* tools which could be used for "piracy". (A lot of "skeptics" seem to think that selling the product makes it wrong. I don't understand the reasoning myself) Fact is, any poster-child we come up with is going to have problems in the eyes of these "skeptics". From sethf at sethf.com Thu Aug 8 21:14:33 2002 From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: <3AF3DD5B-AB2F-11D6-B5ED-0003938C3EE0@speakeasy.net>; from mrussotto@speakeasy.net on Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 08:30:39PM -0400 References: <3AF3DD5B-AB2F-11D6-B5ED-0003938C3EE0@speakeasy.net> Message-ID: <20020809001433.B27282@sethf.com> > On Thu, 8 Aug 2002 02:19:04 -0400, Seth Finkelstein wrote: > But when someone talks about the possibilities of prosecution > to people who are *not* already members of the choir, I haven't found > the reaction to be an immediate "My God! I never realized it was so bad!" > Rather, some common reactions *by skeptics* are (not exhaustively): > 1) You're paranoid, it won't happen, it's all in your fevered imagination. > 2) The ACLU or the EFF will defend you, they live for this sort of thing. > 3) Break the rules, get what you deserve. > On Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 08:30:39PM -0400, Matthew T. Russotto wrote: > These "skeptics" are unconvincable, and there's no reason to base > anything on their reaction. ... Well, what works? I must admit I've not had a great deal of success myself. Maybe there's nothing we can do. I don't claim to be an expert at such convincing. I'm only sharing empirical problems I've encountered from my own experiences in trying to convince skeptical people. If the world is divided into the unconvertable, and the choir singing they're-coming-to-take-us-away, that's disheartening. I do think Felten makes a very good DMCA example, even if the declaratory case didn't proceed. Because it goes to the issues at the heart of the DMCA itself. http://www.cdmediaworld.com/hardware/cdrom/news/0105/decss_2600.shtml Wanted: Loveable hero for copyright battle By Lisa M. Bowman, ZDNet News Although free speech is supposed to protect expression made by society's fringe elements as well as by the mainstream, public opinion and even judges can be swayed by tales of mischievous crackers poised to attack your computer. "As soon as the judge says 'hacker,' you know you've lost," University of Minnesota law Professor Dan Burk said. "There is an attempt to paint defendants as unsympathetic, low-priority, on the fringe--to make it seem like nobody respectable is going to be harmed except for weird hacker types." -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer sethf@sethf.com http://sethf.com Anticensorware Investigations - http://sethf.com/anticensorware/ Seth Finkelstein's Infothought list - http://sethf.com/infothought/ http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/19/technology/circuits/19HACK.html From seth.johnson at RealMeasures.dyndns.org Thu Aug 8 21:10:00 2002 From: seth.johnson at RealMeasures.dyndns.org (Seth Johnson) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions References: <3AF3DD5B-AB2F-11D6-B5ED-0003938C3EE0@speakeasy.net> <20020809001433.B27282@sethf.com> Message-ID: <3D534098.D926BA61@RealMeasures.dyndns.org> Seth Finkelstein wrote: > > Well, what works? I must admit I've not had a > great deal of success myself. Maybe there's nothing we > can do. I don't claim to be an expert at such > convincing. I'm only sharing empirical problems I've > encountered from my own experiences in trying to > convince skeptical people. If the world is divided into > the unconvertable, and the choir singing > they're-coming-to-take-us-away, that's disheartening. Actually, organizing is best done by pitching to the choir. The key is to show those who agree with you something in motion, and thereby find the ones who are looking for something real to be a part of. That's how you recruit the leaders and build a movement. Organizers "call to emulate." It isn't about spin or consciousness-raising, which the "preaching to the choir" line implies, whenever you hear it brought against you. Seth Johnson -- [CC] Counter-copyright: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/cc/cc.html I reserve no rights restricting copying, modification or distribution of this incidentally recorded communication. Original authorship should be attributed reasonably, but only so far as such an expectation might hold for usual practice in ordinary social discourse to which one holds no claim of exclusive rights. From tompoe at renonevada.net Thu Aug 8 21:29:14 2002 From: tompoe at renonevada.net (tompoe@renonevada.net) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions References: <3AF3DD5B-AB2F-11D6-B5ED-0003938C3EE0@speakeasy.net> <20020809001433.B27282@sethf.com> <3D534098.D926BA61@RealMeasures.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <3D53451A.6030306@renonevada.net> Hi: Let's see what you folks think about the following: A web site that lists Users'Groups [all kinds, flavors, etc.] A web site that lists web sites [supporters] A web site that lists individuals [supporters] The name of the web site: The Linux Army On this page, those who agree to the following are listed: 1] Agree to open their sites to SPAM and cross-posting messages for TAKE ACTION events 2] All messages with EFF will be posted for list members of Users' Groups, web sites and individuals [upon moderator approval] 3] All members of The Linux Army will set up a folder on their mail clients to receive all messages with EFF in the Subject Line, so as not to have an undue amount of cross-posting and SPAM messages in their Inboxes. 4] Now, whenever there are ACTIONS TO TAKE, the hundreds of thousands of members of The Linux Army are alerted, and can, in most cases, with just three clicks, "Do Their Duty". Slashdot is good for what it does, and The Linux Army, ugly as the SPAM aspect is, needs to be alerted to TAKE ACTION when needed. The only way to do that is to agree to a SPAM arrangement. There's a sample page at: http://www.studioforrecording.org/linuxarmy.html If the idea is viable, then the next step is to decide who best to host the site? Thanks, Tom Poe Open Studios Reno, NV Seth Johnson wrote: > Seth Finkelstein wrote: > >> Well, what works? I must admit I've not had a >>great deal of success myself. Maybe there's nothing we >>can do. I don't claim to be an expert at such >>convincing. I'm only sharing empirical problems I've >>encountered from my own experiences in trying to >>convince skeptical people. If the world is divided into >>the unconvertable, and the choir singing >>they're-coming-to-take-us-away, that's disheartening. > > > Actually, organizing is best done by pitching to the choir. > The key is to show those who agree with you something in > motion, and thereby find the ones who are looking for > something real to be a part of. That's how you recruit the > leaders and build a movement. Organizers "call to emulate." > > It isn't about spin or consciousness-raising, which the > "preaching to the choir" line implies, whenever you hear it > brought against you. > > Seth Johnson > -- http://www.studioforrecording.org/ http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ -- Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org and register for the TAKE ACTION page. If you can donate $5, that'll help, too -- From jays at panix.com Thu Aug 8 21:46:01 2002 From: jays at panix.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: <3D53451A.6030306@renonevada.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, tompoe@renonevada.net wrote: > Hi: Let's see what you folks think about the following: > A web site that lists Users'Groups [all kinds, flavors, etc.] > A web site that lists web sites [supporters] > A web site that lists individuals [supporters] > > The name of the web site: The Linux Army This is close to something I have been considering. It is an important thing to do. We should have been at today's FCC meeting. More than a simple alert system is needed. Organization, planning, discipline, and experience will help us. Tom, I love your stuff and this idea. but I have one objection: The name is wrong. Not "Linux", and not even "GNU/Linux". Perhaps not even "Free Software". Right now I do not have a name I like, but I often use the phrase "owners and makers". "stakeholders" is also a good word. The Englobulators plots', if successful, will trammel us as "consumers", but they will do worse to us as owners and makers: they will end our rights to own and make and distribute our own stuff. Also we need not allow any SPAM whatsoever. We can quickly distribute information to many centers without allowing SPAM. We may not even need so much bandwidth that many distribution points are required. Perhaps a mailing list with an archive which we allow to be mirrored, subject, of course, to our strict license, and partly secured by standard cryptographic means ;) oo--JS. > > On this page, those who agree to the following are listed: > 1] Agree to open their sites to SPAM and cross-posting messages for TAKE > ACTION events > 2] All messages with EFF will be posted for list members of Users' > Groups, web sites and individuals [upon moderator approval] > 3] All members of The Linux Army will set up a folder on their mail > clients to receive all messages with EFF in the Subject Line, so as not > to have an undue amount of cross-posting and SPAM messages in their Inboxes. > 4] Now, whenever there are ACTIONS TO TAKE, the hundreds of thousands of > members of The Linux Army are alerted, and can, in most cases, with just > three clicks, "Do Their Duty". > > Slashdot is good for what it does, and The Linux Army, ugly as the SPAM > aspect is, needs to be alerted to TAKE ACTION when needed. The only way > to do that is to agree to a SPAM arrangement. > > There's a sample page at: > http://www.studioforrecording.org/linuxarmy.html > > If the idea is viable, then the next step is to decide who best to host > the site? > Thanks, > Tom Poe > Open Studios > Reno, NV > > Seth Johnson wrote: > > Seth Finkelstein wrote: > > > >> Well, what works? I must admit I've not had a > >>great deal of success myself. Maybe there's nothing we > >>can do. I don't claim to be an expert at such > >>convincing. I'm only sharing empirical problems I've > >>encountered from my own experiences in trying to > >>convince skeptical people. If the world is divided into > >>the unconvertable, and the choir singing > >>they're-coming-to-take-us-away, that's disheartening. > > > > > > Actually, organizing is best done by pitching to the choir. > > The key is to show those who agree with you something in > > motion, and thereby find the ones who are looking for > > something real to be a part of. That's how you recruit the > > leaders and build a movement. Organizers "call to emulate." > > > > It isn't about spin or consciousness-raising, which the > > "preaching to the choir" line implies, whenever you hear it > > brought against you. > > > > Seth Johnson > > > > > -- > http://www.studioforrecording.org/ > http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ > http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ > -- > Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org > and register for the TAKE ACTION page. > If you can donate $5, that'll help, too > -- > > > _______________________________________________ > free-sklyarov mailing list > free-sklyarov@zork.net > http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > From proclus at gnu-darwin.org Thu Aug 8 22:01:40 2002 From: proclus at gnu-darwin.org (proclus@gnu-darwin.org) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:53 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020809050147.DD05CFC53@proclus.dyndns.org> How about "Freedom Axis"? I like the general idea to encompass groups who value free software, open standards, fair use, cryptography, privacy, etc. Speaking for myself, I already forward important alerts to the lists that I administrate, about 300 subscribers, plus free-skyarov sometimes. I don't consider it spam, because the subscribers have an expressed interest. I'm sure that others are doing likewise. How is this proposal different from what we are doing already? EFF action alerts, Politech, etc? How to do we avoid burnout and too much email? Regards, proclus http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ On 9 Aug, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > > > On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, tompoe@renonevada.net wrote: > >> Hi: Let's see what you folks think about the following: >> A web site that lists Users'Groups [all kinds, flavors, etc.] >> A web site that lists web sites [supporters] >> A web site that lists individuals [supporters] >> >> The name of the web site: The Linux Army > > This is close to something I have been considering. It is an important > thing to do. We should have been at today's FCC meeting. > > More than a simple alert system is needed. Organization, planning, > discipline, and experience will help us. > > Tom, I love your stuff and this idea. but I have one objection: > > The name is wrong. Not "Linux", and not even "GNU/Linux". Perhaps not > even "Free Software". Right now I do not have a name I like, but I often > use the phrase "owners and makers". "stakeholders" is also a good word. > The Englobulators plots', if successful, will trammel us as "consumers", but > they will do worse to us as owners and makers: they will end our rights to > own and make and distribute our own stuff. > > Also we need not allow any SPAM whatsoever. We can quickly distribute > information to many centers without allowing SPAM. We may not even need so > much bandwidth that many distribution points are required. Perhaps a > mailing list with an archive which we allow to be mirrored, subject, of > course, to our strict license, and partly secured by standard cryptographic > means ;) > > oo--JS. > > >> >> On this page, those who agree to the following are listed: >> 1] Agree to open their sites to SPAM and cross-posting messages for TAKE >> ACTION events >> 2] All messages with EFF will be posted for list members of Users' >> Groups, web sites and individuals [upon moderator approval] >> 3] All members of The Linux Army will set up a folder on their mail >> clients to receive all messages with EFF in the Subject Line, so as not >> to have an undue amount of cross-posting and SPAM messages in their Inboxes. >> 4] Now, whenever there are ACTIONS TO TAKE, the hundreds of thousands of >> members of The Linux Army are alerted, and can, in most cases, with just >> three clicks, "Do Their Duty". >> >> Slashdot is good for what it does, and The Linux Army, ugly as the SPAM >> aspect is, needs to be alerted to TAKE ACTION when needed. The only way >> to do that is to agree to a SPAM arrangement. >> >> There's a sample page at: >> http://www.studioforrecording.org/linuxarmy.html >> >> If the idea is viable, then the next step is to decide who best to host >> the site? >> Thanks, >> Tom Poe >> Open Studios >> Reno, NV >> >> Seth Johnson wrote: >> > Seth Finkelstein wrote: >> > >> >> Well, what works? I must admit I've not had a >> >>great deal of success myself. Maybe there's nothing we >> >>can do. I don't claim to be an expert at such >> >>convincing. I'm only sharing empirical problems I've >> >>encountered from my own experiences in trying to >> >>convince skeptical people. If the world is divided into >> >>the unconvertable, and the choir singing >> >>they're-coming-to-take-us-away, that's disheartening. >> > >> > >> > Actually, organizing is best done by pitching to the choir. >> > The key is to show those who agree with you something in >> > motion, and thereby find the ones who are looking for >> > something real to be a part of. That's how you recruit the >> > leaders and build a movement. Organizers "call to emulate." >> > >> > It isn't about spin or consciousness-raising, which the >> > "preaching to the choir" line implies, whenever you hear it >> > brought against you. >> > >> > Seth Johnson >> > >> >> >> -- >> http://www.studioforrecording.org/ >> http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ >> http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ >> -- >> Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org >> and register for the TAKE ACTION page. >> If you can donate $5, that'll help, too >> -- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> free-sklyarov mailing list >> free-sklyarov@zork.net >> http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov >> > > > _______________________________________________ > free-sklyarov mailing list > free-sklyarov@zork.net > http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a+ C++++ UBOULI++++$ P+ L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-(--)@ b !DI D- G e++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://frotz.zork.net/pipermail/free-sklyarov/attachments/20020809/510cc498/attachment.pgp From tompoe at renonevada.net Thu Aug 8 22:13:44 2002 From: tompoe at renonevada.net (tompoe@renonevada.net) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:54 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions References: <20020809050147.DD05CFC53@proclus.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <3D534F88.8020805@renonevada.net> Hi: good question. This proposal is different in that the goal is to unify the TAKE ACTION aspects of discussion. For example, the EFF folks have a web page that says, TAKE ACTION. There are other sites that have a web page that says, TAKE ACTION. I take action, then I can't remember what action I took. I can't remember what page to go to to check. What we need is organization, - - - - as Jay points out. Now, when you post to your lists, that's the idea. Let's expand and be able to point to a wide range of lists, a wide variety of touch points, so that a big, significant action happens all at once. I think Jay has a point about the SPAM. On the other hand, I don't think it serves much purpose if a singular message is posted on each list, and that's the end of it. I think the need to post and cross-post, and make sure people recognize something is happening is necessary. Thanks, Tom Poe Open Studios Reno, NV proclus@gnu-darwin.org wrote: > How about "Freedom Axis"? I like the general idea to encompass groups > who value free software, open standards, fair use, cryptography, > privacy, etc. Speaking for myself, I already forward important alerts > to the lists that I administrate, about 300 subscribers, plus > free-skyarov sometimes. I don't consider it spam, because the > subscribers have an expressed interest. I'm sure that others are doing > likewise. > > How is this proposal different from what we are doing already? EFF > action alerts, Politech, etc? How to do we avoid burnout and too much > email? > > Regards, > proclus > http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ > > On 9 Aug, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > >> >>On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, tompoe@renonevada.net wrote: >> >> >>>Hi: Let's see what you folks think about the following: >>>A web site that lists Users'Groups [all kinds, flavors, etc.] >>>A web site that lists web sites [supporters] >>>A web site that lists individuals [supporters] >>> >>>The name of the web site: The Linux Army >> >>This is close to something I have been considering. It is an important >>thing to do. We should have been at today's FCC meeting. >> >>More than a simple alert system is needed. Organization, planning, >>discipline, and experience will help us. >> >>Tom, I love your stuff and this idea. but I have one objection: >> >>The name is wrong. Not "Linux", and not even "GNU/Linux". Perhaps not >>even "Free Software". Right now I do not have a name I like, but I often >>use the phrase "owners and makers". "stakeholders" is also a good word. >>The Englobulators plots', if successful, will trammel us as "consumers", but >>they will do worse to us as owners and makers: they will end our rights to >>own and make and distribute our own stuff. >> >>Also we need not allow any SPAM whatsoever. We can quickly distribute >>information to many centers without allowing SPAM. We may not even need so >>much bandwidth that many distribution points are required. Perhaps a >>mailing list with an archive which we allow to be mirrored, subject, of >>course, to our strict license, and partly secured by standard cryptographic >>means ;) >> >>oo--JS. >> >> >> >>>On this page, those who agree to the following are listed: >>>1] Agree to open their sites to SPAM and cross-posting messages for TAKE >>>ACTION events >>>2] All messages with EFF will be posted for list members of Users' >>>Groups, web sites and individuals [upon moderator approval] >>>3] All members of The Linux Army will set up a folder on their mail >>>clients to receive all messages with EFF in the Subject Line, so as not >>>to have an undue amount of cross-posting and SPAM messages in their Inboxes. >>>4] Now, whenever there are ACTIONS TO TAKE, the hundreds of thousands of >>>members of The Linux Army are alerted, and can, in most cases, with just >>>three clicks, "Do Their Duty". >>> >>>Slashdot is good for what it does, and The Linux Army, ugly as the SPAM >>>aspect is, needs to be alerted to TAKE ACTION when needed. The only way >>>to do that is to agree to a SPAM arrangement. >>> >>>There's a sample page at: >>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/linuxarmy.html >>> >>>If the idea is viable, then the next step is to decide who best to host >>>the site? >>>Thanks, >>>Tom Poe >>>Open Studios >>>Reno, NV >>> >>>Seth Johnson wrote: >>> >>>>Seth Finkelstein wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Well, what works? I must admit I've not had a >>>>>great deal of success myself. Maybe there's nothing we >>>>>can do. I don't claim to be an expert at such >>>>>convincing. I'm only sharing empirical problems I've >>>>>encountered from my own experiences in trying to >>>>>convince skeptical people. If the world is divided into >>>>>the unconvertable, and the choir singing >>>>>they're-coming-to-take-us-away, that's disheartening. >>>> >>>> >>>>Actually, organizing is best done by pitching to the choir. >>>>The key is to show those who agree with you something in >>>>motion, and thereby find the ones who are looking for >>>>something real to be a part of. That's how you recruit the >>>>leaders and build a movement. Organizers "call to emulate." >>>> >>>>It isn't about spin or consciousness-raising, which the >>>>"preaching to the choir" line implies, whenever you hear it >>>>brought against you. >>>> >>>>Seth Johnson >>>> >>> >>> >>>-- >>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/ >>>http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ >>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ >>>-- >>>Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org >>>and register for the TAKE ACTION page. >>>If you can donate $5, that'll help, too >>>-- >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>free-sklyarov mailing list >>>free-sklyarov@zork.net >>>http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov >>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>free-sklyarov mailing list >>free-sklyarov@zork.net >>http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > > -- http://www.studioforrecording.org/ http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ -- Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org and register for the TAKE ACTION page. If you can donate $5, that'll help, too -- From proclus at gnu-darwin.org Thu Aug 8 22:34:13 2002 From: proclus at gnu-darwin.org (proclus@gnu-darwin.org) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:54 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: <3D534F88.8020805@renonevada.net> Message-ID: <20020809053427.8CE91FC73@proclus.dyndns.org> OK, let's say that I subscribe two GNU-Darwin lists to the Axis listserver (After checking off with the other GNU-Darwinists). Then alerts are automatically posted to the GNU-Darwinists, who have already agreed to receive them. They should be cryptographically signed, so that they can be verified. If half the people receiving this message were to do likewise, we would be reaching a good crowd. Axis should also subscribe itself to each member list, so that the alert messages can be verified. That should be easily automated. Regards, proclus http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ On 8 Aug, tompoe@renonevada.net wrote: > Hi: good question. This proposal is different in that the goal is to > unify the TAKE ACTION aspects of discussion. For example, the EFF folks > have a web page that says, TAKE ACTION. There are other sites that have > a web page that says, TAKE ACTION. I take action, then I can't remember > what action I took. I can't remember what page to go to to check. > > What we need is organization, - - - - as Jay points out. > > Now, when you post to your lists, that's the idea. Let's expand and be > able to point to a wide range of lists, a wide variety of touch points, > so that a big, significant action happens all at once. > > I think Jay has a point about the SPAM. On the other hand, I don't think > it serves much purpose if a singular message is posted on each list, and > that's the end of it. I think the need to post and cross-post, and make > sure people recognize something is happening is necessary. > Thanks, > Tom Poe > Open Studios > Reno, NV > > proclus@gnu-darwin.org wrote: >> How about "Freedom Axis"? I like the general idea to encompass groups >> who value free software, open standards, fair use, cryptography, >> privacy, etc. Speaking for myself, I already forward important alerts >> to the lists that I administrate, about 300 subscribers, plus >> free-skyarov sometimes. I don't consider it spam, because the >> subscribers have an expressed interest. I'm sure that others are doing >> likewise. >> >> How is this proposal different from what we are doing already? EFF >> action alerts, Politech, etc? How to do we avoid burnout and too much >> email? >> >> Regards, >> proclus >> http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ >> >> On 9 Aug, Jay Sulzberger wrote: >> >>> >>>On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, tompoe@renonevada.net wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Hi: Let's see what you folks think about the following: >>>>A web site that lists Users'Groups [all kinds, flavors, etc.] >>>>A web site that lists web sites [supporters] >>>>A web site that lists individuals [supporters] >>>> >>>>The name of the web site: The Linux Army >>> >>>This is close to something I have been considering. It is an important >>>thing to do. We should have been at today's FCC meeting. >>> >>>More than a simple alert system is needed. Organization, planning, >>>discipline, and experience will help us. >>> >>>Tom, I love your stuff and this idea. but I have one objection: >>> >>>The name is wrong. Not "Linux", and not even "GNU/Linux". Perhaps not >>>even "Free Software". Right now I do not have a name I like, but I often >>>use the phrase "owners and makers". "stakeholders" is also a good word. >>>The Englobulators plots', if successful, will trammel us as "consumers", but >>>they will do worse to us as owners and makers: they will end our rights to >>>own and make and distribute our own stuff. >>> >>>Also we need not allow any SPAM whatsoever. We can quickly distribute >>>information to many centers without allowing SPAM. We may not even need so >>>much bandwidth that many distribution points are required. Perhaps a >>>mailing list with an archive which we allow to be mirrored, subject, of >>>course, to our strict license, and partly secured by standard cryptographic >>>means ;) >>> >>>oo--JS. >>> >>> >>> >>>>On this page, those who agree to the following are listed: >>>>1] Agree to open their sites to SPAM and cross-posting messages for TAKE >>>>ACTION events >>>>2] All messages with EFF will be posted for list members of Users' >>>>Groups, web sites and individuals [upon moderator approval] >>>>3] All members of The Linux Army will set up a folder on their mail >>>>clients to receive all messages with EFF in the Subject Line, so as not >>>>to have an undue amount of cross-posting and SPAM messages in their Inboxes. >>>>4] Now, whenever there are ACTIONS TO TAKE, the hundreds of thousands of >>>>members of The Linux Army are alerted, and can, in most cases, with just >>>>three clicks, "Do Their Duty". >>>> >>>>Slashdot is good for what it does, and The Linux Army, ugly as the SPAM >>>>aspect is, needs to be alerted to TAKE ACTION when needed. The only way >>>>to do that is to agree to a SPAM arrangement. >>>> >>>>There's a sample page at: >>>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/linuxarmy.html >>>> >>>>If the idea is viable, then the next step is to decide who best to host >>>>the site? >>>>Thanks, >>>>Tom Poe >>>>Open Studios >>>>Reno, NV >>>> >>>>Seth Johnson wrote: >>>> >>>>>Seth Finkelstein wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Well, what works? I must admit I've not had a >>>>>>great deal of success myself. Maybe there's nothing we >>>>>>can do. I don't claim to be an expert at such >>>>>>convincing. I'm only sharing empirical problems I've >>>>>>encountered from my own experiences in trying to >>>>>>convince skeptical people. If the world is divided into >>>>>>the unconvertable, and the choir singing >>>>>>they're-coming-to-take-us-away, that's disheartening. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Actually, organizing is best done by pitching to the choir. >>>>>The key is to show those who agree with you something in >>>>>motion, and thereby find the ones who are looking for >>>>>something real to be a part of. That's how you recruit the >>>>>leaders and build a movement. Organizers "call to emulate." >>>>> >>>>>It isn't about spin or consciousness-raising, which the >>>>>"preaching to the choir" line implies, whenever you hear it >>>>>brought against you. >>>>> >>>>>Seth Johnson >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>-- >>>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/ >>>>http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ >>>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ >>>>-- >>>>Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org >>>>and register for the TAKE ACTION page. >>>>If you can donate $5, that'll help, too >>>>-- >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>free-sklyarov mailing list >>>>free-sklyarov@zork.net >>>>http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov >>>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>free-sklyarov mailing list >>>free-sklyarov@zork.net >>>http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov >> >> > > -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a+ C++++ UBOULI++++$ P+ L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-(--)@ b !DI D- G e++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://frotz.zork.net/pipermail/free-sklyarov/attachments/20020809/dda0b8f9/attachment.pgp From seth.johnson at RealMeasures.dyndns.org Thu Aug 8 22:28:35 2002 From: seth.johnson at RealMeasures.dyndns.org (Seth Johnson) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:54 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions References: Message-ID: <3D535303.7A0DDEF@RealMeasures.dyndns.org> Jay Sulzberger wrote: > > The name is wrong. Not "Linux", and not even "GNU/Linux". > Perhaps not even "Free Software". Right now I do not have > a name I like, but I often use the phrase "owners and > makers". "stakeholders" is also a good word. The > Englobulators plots', if successful, will trammel us as > "consumers", but they will do worse to us as owners and > makers: they will end our rights to own and make and > distribute our own stuff. Information Citizens :-) Seth -- [CC] Counter-copyright: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/cc/cc.html I reserve no rights restricting copying, modification or distribution of this incidentally recorded communication. Original authorship should be attributed reasonably, but only so far as such an expectation might hold for usual practice in ordinary social discourse to which one holds no claim of exclusive rights. From proclus at gnu-darwin.org Thu Aug 8 22:46:47 2002 From: proclus at gnu-darwin.org (proclus@gnu-darwin.org) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:54 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: <3D535303.7A0DDEF@RealMeasures.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20020809054654.E068AFC94@proclus.dyndns.org> On 9 Aug, Seth Johnson wrote: > > Information Citizens Or Citizens Informed, Action Information System/Alliance. Regards, proclus http://www.gnu-darwin.org > > :-) > > Seth > -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a+ C++++ UBOULI++++$ P+ L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-(--)@ b !DI D- G e++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://frotz.zork.net/pipermail/free-sklyarov/attachments/20020809/d27d265c/attachment.pgp From ruben at mrbrklyn.com Thu Aug 8 22:58:08 2002 From: ruben at mrbrklyn.com (Ruben I Safir) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:54 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: ; from jays@panix.com on Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 00:46:01 -0400 References: <3D53451A.6030306@renonevada.net> Message-ID: <20020809015808.A4394@www2.mrbrklyn.com> << We should have been at today's FCC meeting.>> NO we shouldn't have. We'd just become as irrelevant as the rest of the folks who have been fighting this and been unsucceful until now. It's unimportant at this point, and would just overload our ability to focus on campians which we are better prepared to win and to raise the political issue. Some seem to not understand this yet. There trying to get you to become overloaded and unfocused, and hoping around from brush fire to brush fire feeds into their hands. Instead, we need to get the Fair Use bill written and onto the house floor, and do an end run around the beauracrats. Ruben -- __________________________ Brooklyn Linux Solutions __________________________ http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.nylxs.com/radio - Free Software Radio Show and Archives http://www.brooklynonline.com - For the love of Brooklyn http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www.nyfairuse.org - The foundation of Democracy http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/mp3/dr.mp3 - Imagine my surprise when I saw you... http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn.... 1-718-382-5752 From ruben at mrbrklyn.com Thu Aug 8 23:00:12 2002 From: ruben at mrbrklyn.com (Ruben I Safir) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:54 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: <3D534F88.8020805@renonevada.net>; from tompoe@renonevada.net on Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 01:13:44 -0400 References: <20020809050147.DD05CFC53@proclus.dyndns.org> <3D534F88.8020805@renonevada.net> Message-ID: <20020809020012.C4394@www2.mrbrklyn.com> defenitly count out NY Fair Use. The noise level is alreay too high. > > I think Jay has a point about the SPAM. On the other hand, I don't think > it serves much purpose if a singular message is posted on each list, and > that's the end of it. I think the need to post and cross-post, and make > sure people recognize something is happening is necessary. > Thanks, > Tom Poe > Open Studios > Reno, NV > > proclus@gnu-darwin.org wrote: > > How about "Freedom Axis"? I like the general idea to encompass groups > > who value free software, open standards, fair use, cryptography, > > privacy, etc. Speaking for myself, I already forward important alerts > > to the lists that I administrate, about 300 subscribers, plus > > free-skyarov sometimes. I don't consider it spam, because the > > subscribers have an expressed interest. I'm sure that others are doing > > likewise. > > > > How is this proposal different from what we are doing already? EFF > > action alerts, Politech, etc? How to do we avoid burnout and too much > > email? > > > > Regards, > > proclus > > http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ > > > > On 9 Aug, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > > > >> > >>On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, tompoe@renonevada.net wrote: > >> > >> > >>>Hi: Let's see what you folks think about the following: > >>>A web site that lists Users'Groups [all kinds, flavors, etc.] > >>>A web site that lists web sites [supporters] > >>>A web site that lists individuals [supporters] > >>> > >>>The name of the web site: The Linux Army > >> > >>This is close to something I have been considering. It is an important > >>thing to do. We should have been at today's FCC meeting. > >> > >>More than a simple alert system is needed. Organization, planning, > >>discipline, and experience will help us. > >> > >>Tom, I love your stuff and this idea. but I have one objection: > >> > >>The name is wrong. Not "Linux", and not even "GNU/Linux". Perhaps not > >>even "Free Software". Right now I do not have a name I like, but I often > >>use the phrase "owners and makers". "stakeholders" is also a good word. > >>The Englobulators plots', if successful, will trammel us as "consumers", but > >>they will do worse to us as owners and makers: they will end our rights to > >>own and make and distribute our own stuff. > >> > >>Also we need not allow any SPAM whatsoever. We can quickly distribute > >>information to many centers without allowing SPAM. We may not even need so > >>much bandwidth that many distribution points are required. Perhaps a > >>mailing list with an archive which we allow to be mirrored, subject, of > >>course, to our strict license, and partly secured by standard cryptographic > >>means ;) > >> > >>oo--JS. > >> > >> > >> > >>>On this page, those who agree to the following are listed: > >>>1] Agree to open their sites to SPAM and cross-posting messages for TAKE > >>>ACTION events > >>>2] All messages with EFF will be posted for list members of Users' > >>>Groups, web sites and individuals [upon moderator approval] > >>>3] All members of The Linux Army will set up a folder on their mail > >>>clients to receive all messages with EFF in the Subject Line, so as not > >>>to have an undue amount of cross-posting and SPAM messages in their Inboxes. > >>>4] Now, whenever there are ACTIONS TO TAKE, the hundreds of thousands of > >>>members of The Linux Army are alerted, and can, in most cases, with just > >>>three clicks, "Do Their Duty". > >>> > >>>Slashdot is good for what it does, and The Linux Army, ugly as the SPAM > >>>aspect is, needs to be alerted to TAKE ACTION when needed. The only way > >>>to do that is to agree to a SPAM arrangement. > >>> > >>>There's a sample page at: > >>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/linuxarmy.html > >>> > >>>If the idea is viable, then the next step is to decide who best to host > >>>the site? > >>>Thanks, > >>>Tom Poe > >>>Open Studios > >>>Reno, NV > >>> > >>>Seth Johnson wrote: > >>> > >>>>Seth Finkelstein wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> Well, what works? I must admit I've not had a > >>>>>great deal of success myself. Maybe there's nothing we > >>>>>can do. I don't claim to be an expert at such > >>>>>convincing. I'm only sharing empirical problems I've > >>>>>encountered from my own experiences in trying to > >>>>>convince skeptical people. If the world is divided into > >>>>>the unconvertable, and the choir singing > >>>>>they're-coming-to-take-us-away, that's disheartening. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>Actually, organizing is best done by pitching to the choir. > >>>>The key is to show those who agree with you something in > >>>>motion, and thereby find the ones who are looking for > >>>>something real to be a part of. That's how you recruit the > >>>>leaders and build a movement. Organizers "call to emulate." > >>>> > >>>>It isn't about spin or consciousness-raising, which the > >>>>"preaching to the choir" line implies, whenever you hear it > >>>>brought against you. > >>>> > >>>>Seth Johnson > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>>-- > >>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/ > >>>http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ > >>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ > >>>-- > >>>Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org > >>>and register for the TAKE ACTION page. > >>>If you can donate $5, that'll help, too > >>>-- > >>> > >>> > >>>_______________________________________________ > >>>free-sklyarov mailing list > >>>free-sklyarov@zork.net > >>>http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > >>> > >> > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>free-sklyarov mailing list > >>free-sklyarov@zork.net > >>http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > > > > > > > -- > http://www.studioforrecording.org/ > http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ > http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ > -- > Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org > and register for the TAKE ACTION page. > If you can donate $5, that'll help, too > -- > > > _______________________________________________ > free-sklyarov mailing list > free-sklyarov@zork.net > http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > -- __________________________ Brooklyn Linux Solutions __________________________ http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.nylxs.com/radio - Free Software Radio Show and Archives http://www.brooklynonline.com - For the love of Brooklyn http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www.nyfairuse.org - The foundation of Democracy http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/mp3/dr.mp3 - Imagine my surprise when I saw you... http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn.... 1-718-382-5752 From ruben at mrbrklyn.com Thu Aug 8 23:07:53 2002 From: ruben at mrbrklyn.com (Ruben I Safir) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:54 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: <3D534098.D926BA61@RealMeasures.dyndns.org>; from seth.johnson@RealMeasures.dyndns.org on Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 00:10:00 -0400 References: <3AF3DD5B-AB2F-11D6-B5ED-0003938C3EE0@speakeasy.net> <20020809001433.B27282@sethf.com> <3D534098.D926BA61@RealMeasures.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20020809020753.A4583@www2.mrbrklyn.com> Both are needed. Building in the choir and outreach. > Actually, organizing is best done by pitching to the choir. > The key is to show those who agree with you something in > motion, and thereby find the ones who are looking for > something real to be a part of. That's how you recruit the > leaders and build a movement. Organizers "call to emulate." > > It isn't about spin or consciousness-raising, which the > "preaching to the choir" line implies, whenever you hear it > brought against you. > > Seth Johnson > > -- > > [CC] Counter-copyright: > http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/cc/cc.html > > I reserve no rights restricting copying, modification or > distribution of this incidentally recorded communication. > Original authorship should be attributed reasonably, but > only so far as such an expectation might hold for usual > practice in ordinary social discourse to which one holds no > claim of exclusive rights. > > > _______________________________________________ > free-sklyarov mailing list > free-sklyarov@zork.net > http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > -- __________________________ Brooklyn Linux Solutions __________________________ http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.nylxs.com/radio - Free Software Radio Show and Archives http://www.brooklynonline.com - For the love of Brooklyn http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www.nyfairuse.org - The foundation of Democracy http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/mp3/dr.mp3 - Imagine my surprise when I saw you... http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn.... 1-718-382-5752 From proclus at gnu-darwin.org Thu Aug 8 23:09:25 2002 From: proclus at gnu-darwin.org (proclus@gnu-darwin.org) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:54 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: <20020809020012.C4394@www2.mrbrklyn.com> Message-ID: <20020809060932.13B26FCB1@proclus.dyndns.org> Ruben's point is important. A single message to each member group would be sufficient (then maybe nyfairuse will join ;-), and they can discuss a single message among themselves in a manner that is appropriate for their own group. There should be an opt-in mechanism for people who wish to become more involved in any particular action. I liked the way that Stakeholders 7/17 "sucked you in", when you replied to the alert. That gets you right into it, like free-skyarov was in the first days. Regards, proclus http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ On 9 Aug, Ruben I Safir wrote: > defenitly count out NY Fair Use. The noise level is alreay too high. > >> I think Jay has a point about the SPAM. On the other hand, I don't think >> it serves much purpose if a singular message is posted on each list, and >> that's the end of it. I think the need to post and cross-post, and make >> sure people recognize something is happening is necessary. >> Thanks, >> Tom Poe >> Open Studios >> Reno, NV >> >> proclus@gnu-darwin.org wrote: >> > How about "Freedom Axis"? I like the general idea to encompass groups >> > who value free software, open standards, fair use, cryptography, >> > privacy, etc. Speaking for myself, I already forward important alerts >> > to the lists that I administrate, about 300 subscribers, plus >> > free-skyarov sometimes. I don't consider it spam, because the >> > subscribers have an expressed interest. I'm sure that others are doing >> > likewise. >> > >> > How is this proposal different from what we are doing already? EFF >> > action alerts, Politech, etc? How to do we avoid burnout and too much >> > email? >> > >> > Regards, >> > proclus >> > http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ >> > >> > On 9 Aug, Jay Sulzberger wrote: >> > >> >> >> >>On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, tompoe@renonevada.net wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>>Hi: Let's see what you folks think about the following: >> >>>A web site that lists Users'Groups [all kinds, flavors, etc.] >> >>>A web site that lists web sites [supporters] >> >>>A web site that lists individuals [supporters] >> >>> >> >>>The name of the web site: The Linux Army >> >> >> >>This is close to something I have been considering. It is an important >> >>thing to do. We should have been at today's FCC meeting. >> >> >> >>More than a simple alert system is needed. Organization, planning, >> >>discipline, and experience will help us. >> >> >> >>Tom, I love your stuff and this idea. but I have one objection: >> >> >> >>The name is wrong. Not "Linux", and not even "GNU/Linux". Perhaps not >> >>even "Free Software". Right now I do not have a name I like, but I often >> >>use the phrase "owners and makers". "stakeholders" is also a good word. >> >>The Englobulators plots', if successful, will trammel us as "consumers", but >> >>they will do worse to us as owners and makers: they will end our rights to >> >>own and make and distribute our own stuff. >> >> >> >>Also we need not allow any SPAM whatsoever. We can quickly distribute >> >>information to many centers without allowing SPAM. We may not even need so >> >>much bandwidth that many distribution points are required. Perhaps a >> >>mailing list with an archive which we allow to be mirrored, subject, of >> >>course, to our strict license, and partly secured by standard cryptographic >> >>means ;) >> >> >> >>oo--JS. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>>On this page, those who agree to the following are listed: >> >>>1] Agree to open their sites to SPAM and cross-posting messages for TAKE >> >>>ACTION events >> >>>2] All messages with EFF will be posted for list members of Users' >> >>>Groups, web sites and individuals [upon moderator approval] >> >>>3] All members of The Linux Army will set up a folder on their mail >> >>>clients to receive all messages with EFF in the Subject Line, so as not >> >>>to have an undue amount of cross-posting and SPAM messages in their Inboxes. >> >>>4] Now, whenever there are ACTIONS TO TAKE, the hundreds of thousands of >> >>>members of The Linux Army are alerted, and can, in most cases, with just >> >>>three clicks, "Do Their Duty". >> >>> >> >>>Slashdot is good for what it does, and The Linux Army, ugly as the SPAM >> >>>aspect is, needs to be alerted to TAKE ACTION when needed. The only way >> >>>to do that is to agree to a SPAM arrangement. >> >>> >> >>>There's a sample page at: >> >>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/linuxarmy.html >> >>> >> >>>If the idea is viable, then the next step is to decide who best to host >> >>>the site? >> >>>Thanks, >> >>>Tom Poe >> >>>Open Studios >> >>>Reno, NV >> >>> >> >>>Seth Johnson wrote: >> >>> >> >>>>Seth Finkelstein wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>> Well, what works? I must admit I've not had a >> >>>>>great deal of success myself. Maybe there's nothing we >> >>>>>can do. I don't claim to be an expert at such >> >>>>>convincing. I'm only sharing empirical problems I've >> >>>>>encountered from my own experiences in trying to >> >>>>>convince skeptical people. If the world is divided into >> >>>>>the unconvertable, and the choir singing >> >>>>>they're-coming-to-take-us-away, that's disheartening. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>Actually, organizing is best done by pitching to the choir. >> >>>>The key is to show those who agree with you something in >> >>>>motion, and thereby find the ones who are looking for >> >>>>something real to be a part of. That's how you recruit the >> >>>>leaders and build a movement. Organizers "call to emulate." >> >>>> >> >>>>It isn't about spin or consciousness-raising, which the >> >>>>"preaching to the choir" line implies, whenever you hear it >> >>>>brought against you. >> >>>> >> >>>>Seth Johnson >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>-- >> >>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/ >> >>>http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ >> >>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ >> >>>-- >> >>>Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org >> >>>and register for the TAKE ACTION page. >> >>>If you can donate $5, that'll help, too >> >>>-- >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>_______________________________________________ >> >>>free-sklyarov mailing list >> >>>free-sklyarov@zork.net >> >>>http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >> >>free-sklyarov mailing list >> >>free-sklyarov@zork.net >> >>http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> http://www.studioforrecording.org/ >> http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ >> http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ >> -- >> Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org >> and register for the TAKE ACTION page. >> If you can donate $5, that'll help, too >> -- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> free-sklyarov mailing list >> free-sklyarov@zork.net >> http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov >> -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a+ C++++ UBOULI++++$ P+ L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-(--)@ b !DI D- G e++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://frotz.zork.net/pipermail/free-sklyarov/attachments/20020809/10338b45/attachment.pgp From ilya at theIlya.com Thu Aug 8 23:19:13 2002 From: ilya at theIlya.com (ilya@theIlya.com) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:54 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: <20020809001433.B27282@sethf.com> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, 9 Aug 2002, Seth Finkelstein wrote: > > On Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 08:30:39PM -0400, Matthew T. Russotto wrote: > > These "skeptics" are unconvincable, and there's no reason to base > > anything on their reaction. ... > > Well, what works? I must admit I've not had a great deal of > success myself. Maybe there's nothing we can do. I don't claim to be > an expert at such convincing. I'm only sharing empirical problems I've > encountered from my own experiences in trying to convince skeptical > people. If the world is divided into the unconvertable, and the choir > singing they're-coming-to-take-us-away, that's disheartening. Well, history shows there are no 'unconvincable' people. There are people who employ logic and thinking to form their views. These are obviously always convincable to degree of conming to reasonable solution. On the other hand there are pople, who don't use logic and thiinking to form their opinion. These people don't have tools to form opinion, and thus have to borrow opinion from somebody else. Thus whatever their authority says, they will just repeat. The question then is what kind of authorities can we find for groups of such people, and in what ways can we influence such authorities. 1. Youth. People who listen to music, watch Hollywood movies, etc. (Almost wrote read books...) Primary authority of interest, I would say, is artists in this case. Get some pop star say on stage he/she wants kids to trade MP3's of her songs on gnutella... Imagine results... Second authority is parents... Well, not much we can do here, as many of them will belong to 'skeptics', and were they don't, there is probably no need to worry about children. Teatchers. This is important group to think about. If there are any teatchers reading this, think how can you engage children in this debate. This will also engage parents, of course, which in turn will get lot more people aware and thinking... 2. Think of some other group of people, who bwlong to 'skeptics' category, and try to come up with possible authorities for them. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: pgpenvelope 2.9.0 - http://pgpenvelope.sourceforge.net/ iD8DBQE9U17m84S94bALfyURAjMfAJwJVmr4v3vFUAYfr9qyO/iMFrN7fACg1TYT qxDPEP1zB6DwNYyC/ODOTB8= =yNFs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ilya at theIlya.com Thu Aug 8 23:24:00 2002 From: ilya at theIlya.com (ilya@theIlya.com) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:54 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > The name is wrong. Not "Linux", and not even "GNU/Linux". Perhaps not > even "Free Software". Right now I do not have a name I like, but I often > use the phrase "owners and makers". "stakeholders" is also a good word. > The Englobulators plots', if successful, will trammel us as "consumers", but > they will do worse to us as owners and makers: they will end our rights to > own and make and distribute our own stuff. I agree with this. How about "The Netizen Army". Or even better "The Net Army" (Netizen is to soundalike to Natzi). "People Army" or something to that tune would also be appropriate :) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: pgpenvelope 2.9.0 - http://pgpenvelope.sourceforge.net/ iD8DBQE9U2AE84S94bALfyURAiI0AKDVT8ADF77Mp5M9cm54jK5cfNoF/ACeKMea fQEp7DxHZN51mWiwrMVmmCE= =NiBX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ilya at theIlya.com Thu Aug 8 23:39:34 2002 From: ilya at theIlya.com (ilya@theIlya.com) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:54 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: <20020809053427.8CE91FC73@proclus.dyndns.org> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, 9 Aug 2002 proclus@gnu-darwin.org wrote: > If half the people receiving this message > were to do likewise, we would be reaching a good crowd. I'm afraid you are overestimating our numbers. I think there are total of about 2000-3000 people reading *this* message. For action in one place in one time, this would be nice, but considering we are rather distributed, it will not be too noticable. Come on. Biggest crowd Free Sklyarov protests gathered was ~260 people or something? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: pgpenvelope 2.9.0 - http://pgpenvelope.sourceforge.net/ iD8DBQE9U2Oq84S94bALfyURAjC+AJ9Yz3OV+4LU6Pi9duj287+q46PsAACgtFKQ zhCjRfEeTJ7PZQWrHo+W0mw= =IHEf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From schoen at loyalty.org Fri Aug 9 00:05:27 2002 From: schoen at loyalty.org (Seth David Schoen) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:55 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: References: <20020809053427.8CE91FC73@proclus.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20020809070527.GY23240@zork.net> ilya@theIlya.com writes: > I'm afraid you are overestimating our numbers. I think there are total of > about 2000-3000 people reading *this* message. There are now 565 subscribers to free-sklyarov, down from a high of about 1,000. -- Seth David Schoen | Reading is a right, not a feature! http://www.loyalty.org/~schoen/ | -- Kathryn Myronuk http://vitanuova.loyalty.org/ | From ruben at mrbrklyn.com Fri Aug 9 00:12:21 2002 From: ruben at mrbrklyn.com (Ruben I Safir) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:55 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: <20020809060932.13B26FCB1@proclus.dyndns.org>; from proclus@gnu-darwin.org on Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 02:09:25 -0400 References: <20020809020012.C4394@www2.mrbrklyn.com> <20020809060932.13B26FCB1@proclus.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20020809031221.E4741@www2.mrbrklyn.com> NY Fair USe has a very specific program it is trying implement with the goal of obtaining real long term political results, which we hope in the end, will raise the conciousness of the general public. We are focused on Politcal Action through legistlation and the proper use of lexicon: We are the Stake Holders: DRM is Theft. For our purpose, we don't have either ability, funding or inclination to extend this by reacting to everything that haapens in the areana of digital rights in Washington. I want NY Fair Use to build a string of victories, and to raise it's profile, and we're not there yet. Other groups also have good things they want to do. But NY Fair Use doesn't have to be involved in every one of them. Nor do we have to agree with everyone. We have a reletively regmented organization. Frankly my biggest concern is the coming Novemenr Elections. Your CONGRESS PEOPLE ARE HOME NOW. Go find them and challenge them in a town hall meeting on these issues. If someone wishes to create an organization of group leaders, I'd be more inclined to participate in that. But I'm definetely telling everyone that NY Fair Use is not going to be taking leads or an action from EFF just because they ran their 43rd alert this week. Let EFF do what it wants to do. But we have our own leadership and CLEAR vision of what we want to do. Thanks Ruben On 2002.08.09 02:09 proclus@gnu-darwin.org wrote: > > Ruben's point is important. A single message to each member group > would be sufficient (then maybe nyfairuse will join ;-), and they can > discuss a single message among themselves in a manner that is > appropriate for their own group. > > There should be an opt-in mechanism for people who wish to become more > involved in any particular action. I liked the way that Stakeholders > 7/17 "sucked you in", when you replied to the alert. That gets you > right into it, like free-skyarov was in the first days. > > Regards, > proclus > http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ > > > On 9 Aug, Ruben I Safir wrote: > > defenitly count out NY Fair Use. The noise level is alreay too high. > > > >> I think Jay has a point about the SPAM. On the other hand, I don't think > >> it serves much purpose if a singular message is posted on each list, and > >> that's the end of it. I think the need to post and cross-post, and make > >> sure people recognize something is happening is necessary. > >> Thanks, > >> Tom Poe > >> Open Studios > >> Reno, NV > >> > >> proclus@gnu-darwin.org wrote: > >> > How about "Freedom Axis"? I like the general idea to encompass groups > >> > who value free software, open standards, fair use, cryptography, > >> > privacy, etc. Speaking for myself, I already forward important alerts > >> > to the lists that I administrate, about 300 subscribers, plus > >> > free-skyarov sometimes. I don't consider it spam, because the > >> > subscribers have an expressed interest. I'm sure that others are doing > >> > likewise. > >> > > >> > How is this proposal different from what we are doing already? EFF > >> > action alerts, Politech, etc? How to do we avoid burnout and too much > >> > email? > >> > > >> > Regards, > >> > proclus > >> > http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ > >> > > >> > On 9 Aug, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > >> > > >> >> > >> >>On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, tompoe@renonevada.net wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>>Hi: Let's see what you folks think about the following: > >> >>>A web site that lists Users'Groups [all kinds, flavors, etc.] > >> >>>A web site that lists web sites [supporters] > >> >>>A web site that lists individuals [supporters] > >> >>> > >> >>>The name of the web site: The Linux Army > >> >> > >> >>This is close to something I have been considering. It is an important > >> >>thing to do. We should have been at today's FCC meeting. > >> >> > >> >>More than a simple alert system is needed. Organization, planning, > >> >>discipline, and experience will help us. > >> >> > >> >>Tom, I love your stuff and this idea. but I have one objection: > >> >> > >> >>The name is wrong. Not "Linux", and not even "GNU/Linux". Perhaps not > >> >>even "Free Software". Right now I do not have a name I like, but I often > >> >>use the phrase "owners and makers". "stakeholders" is also a good word. > >> >>The Englobulators plots', if successful, will trammel us as "consumers", but > >> >>they will do worse to us as owners and makers: they will end our rights to > >> >>own and make and distribute our own stuff. > >> >> > >> >>Also we need not allow any SPAM whatsoever. We can quickly distribute > >> >>information to many centers without allowing SPAM. We may not even need so > >> >>much bandwidth that many distribution points are required. Perhaps a > >> >>mailing list with an archive which we allow to be mirrored, subject, of > >> >>course, to our strict license, and partly secured by standard cryptographic > >> >>means ;) > >> >> > >> >>oo--JS. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>>On this page, those who agree to the following are listed: > >> >>>1] Agree to open their sites to SPAM and cross-posting messages for TAKE > >> >>>ACTION events > >> >>>2] All messages with EFF will be posted for list members of Users' > >> >>>Groups, web sites and individuals [upon moderator approval] > >> >>>3] All members of The Linux Army will set up a folder on their mail > >> >>>clients to receive all messages with EFF in the Subject Line, so as not > >> >>>to have an undue amount of cross-posting and SPAM messages in their Inboxes. > >> >>>4] Now, whenever there are ACTIONS TO TAKE, the hundreds of thousands of > >> >>>members of The Linux Army are alerted, and can, in most cases, with just > >> >>>three clicks, "Do Their Duty". > >> >>> > >> >>>Slashdot is good for what it does, and The Linux Army, ugly as the SPAM > >> >>>aspect is, needs to be alerted to TAKE ACTION when needed. The only way > >> >>>to do that is to agree to a SPAM arrangement. > >> >>> > >> >>>There's a sample page at: > >> >>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/linuxarmy.html > >> >>> > >> >>>If the idea is viable, then the next step is to decide who best to host > >> >>>the site? > >> >>>Thanks, > >> >>>Tom Poe > >> >>>Open Studios > >> >>>Reno, NV > >> >>> > >> >>>Seth Johnson wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>>>Seth Finkelstein wrote: > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>>> Well, what works? I must admit I've not had a > >> >>>>>great deal of success myself. Maybe there's nothing we > >> >>>>>can do. I don't claim to be an expert at such > >> >>>>>convincing. I'm only sharing empirical problems I've > >> >>>>>encountered from my own experiences in trying to > >> >>>>>convince skeptical people. If the world is divided into > >> >>>>>the unconvertable, and the choir singing > >> >>>>>they're-coming-to-take-us-away, that's disheartening. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>>Actually, organizing is best done by pitching to the choir. > >> >>>>The key is to show those who agree with you something in > >> >>>>motion, and thereby find the ones who are looking for > >> >>>>something real to be a part of. That's how you recruit the > >> >>>>leaders and build a movement. Organizers "call to emulate." > >> >>>> > >> >>>>It isn't about spin or consciousness-raising, which the > >> >>>>"preaching to the choir" line implies, whenever you hear it > >> >>>>brought against you. > >> >>>> > >> >>>>Seth Johnson > >> >>>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>>-- > >> >>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/ > >> >>>http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ > >> >>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ > >> >>>-- > >> >>>Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org > >> >>>and register for the TAKE ACTION page. > >> >>>If you can donate $5, that'll help, too > >> >>>-- > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>>_______________________________________________ > >> >>>free-sklyarov mailing list > >> >>>free-sklyarov@zork.net > >> >>>http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>_______________________________________________ > >> >>free-sklyarov mailing list > >> >>free-sklyarov@zork.net > >> >>http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> -- > >> http://www.studioforrecording.org/ > >> http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ > >> http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ > >> -- > >> Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org > >> and register for the TAKE ACTION page. > >> If you can donate $5, that'll help, too > >> -- > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> free-sklyarov mailing list > >> free-sklyarov@zork.net > >> http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > >> > > -- > Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > Version: 3.1 > GMU/S d+@ s: a+ C++++ UBOULI++++$ P+ L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O > M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-(--)@ b !DI D- G e++++ > h--- r+++ y++++ > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ > > > -- __________________________ Brooklyn Linux Solutions __________________________ http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.nylxs.com/radio - Free Software Radio Show and Archives http://www.brooklynonline.com - For the love of Brooklyn http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www.nyfairuse.org - The foundation of Democracy http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/mp3/dr.mp3 - Imagine my surprise when I saw you... http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn.... 1-718-382-5752 From ruben at mrbrklyn.com Fri Aug 9 00:15:33 2002 From: ruben at mrbrklyn.com (Ruben I Safir) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:55 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: <20020809060932.13B26FCB1@proclus.dyndns.org>; from proclus@gnu-darwin.org on Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 02:09:25 -0400 References: <20020809020012.C4394@www2.mrbrklyn.com> <20020809060932.13B26FCB1@proclus.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20020809031533.G4741@www2.mrbrklyn.com> BTW - no to evanglilize: But that was possible because Seth and I were prepared for that oppurtunity and had our P&Q's in order with a program in place and ready to go. It didn't happen by magic. The reason why we took them by sprise was because we set up an ambush and Jack Valenti walked right in. If he does this a few more times, we're gonna win this BIG. > There should be an opt-in mechanism for people who wish to become more > involved in any particular action. I liked the way that Stakeholders > 7/17 "sucked you in", when you replied to the alert. That gets you > right into it, like free-skyarov was in the first days. > > -- __________________________ Brooklyn Linux Solutions __________________________ http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.nylxs.com/radio - Free Software Radio Show and Archives http://www.brooklynonline.com - For the love of Brooklyn http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www.nyfairuse.org - The foundation of Democracy http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/mp3/dr.mp3 - Imagine my surprise when I saw you... http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn.... 1-718-382-5752 From ruben at mrbrklyn.com Fri Aug 9 00:28:03 2002 From: ruben at mrbrklyn.com (Ruben I Safir) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:55 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: <20020809031533.G4741@www2.mrbrklyn.com>; from ruben@mrbrklyn.com on Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 03:15:33 -0400 References: <20020809020012.C4394@www2.mrbrklyn.com> <20020809060932.13B26FCB1@proclus.dyndns.org> <20020809031533.G4741@www2.mrbrklyn.com> Message-ID: <20020809032803.K4741@www2.mrbrklyn.com> This is the Kind of thing NY Fair Use is Focused on... In Response to Seth's wonderful post (listed below)Ruben Wrote: Well Done! We have to keep hammering it just like that, line for line on these arguements, just as they are laid out. Jack Valenti and July 17th, Washington DC, Department of Commercie DRM Workshop: "A little Demagogary Never Hurt anyone" Jack agian in 1982: "The VCR is to Movies like the Boston Strangler to Young Women" Ruben Safir: President of NYLXS and Co-Founder of NY Fair Use August 2002: "Jack Valanti is to Private Ownership and Property as the Boston Strangler to the VCR" Jack Valenti again at the DRM Workshop: "If this body connot find a way to agree to find a way which will protect private property from Theft then we'll just have to go to Congress and get it done" Ruben Safir at the Press Conference after the Workshop: "I completely agree with Jack Valenti. Congress has to step in and protect our private property from theft. It's my damn disk, my damn computer. If someone breaks into my home and steals my computer and my DVD's, who calls the cops and files the police report? Me or Universal Pictures? DRM is Theft. Congress must pass a law which will protect the property of every owner of a computer and purchaser of Digital Information by outlawing anything which prevents the full enjoyment of their property. We don't need prior aproval of Warner Brothers, Jack Valenti, or Barry Sorkin to use our computers to augment our enjoyment of our property. There is no forced contract to a cash sale. Forcing a contract on the public which they didn't negotiate as equal partners is a form of slavery no free citizen can put up with. That's why we propose a New Fair Use Bill, one which guarantees that Copyright is secondary to the Constitutional Right of Security in ones Home and with one's pocessions. Because Copyright is secondary to my property rights in my home and Congress has to make it clear. If anyone should be forced into a license, then Bertleson should be forced to License to Listen.com. That's why we gave them the limited exclussive Monopoly in the first place, to make sure the material is published. If they don't want to publish, too bad, make them do it anyway or strip them of their Monopoly. How can we can we continue to expect to maintain a free society if we can't accumulate, copy and archive on our digital systems and information. How are we expected to be able to publish from annotated facts, with references to the original works when everything on the internet can expire or disapear. We have to be able to copy to archive. It's essential to our politcal speech, or for that matter our abilty to have party music mixed to our own enjoyment on Saturday Night." On Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 12:20:44AM -0400, Seth Johnson wrote: > > > (I sent this to Declan but he didn't put it out on > POLITECH. You might want to read Charles Sims' comments > from POLITECH, pasted below, first. Sims represented the > movie studios against 2600 magazine. His comments were in > response to Declan's posting of Siva Vaidhyanathan's > Copyright Cudgel article. -- Seth) > > -------- Original Message -------- > Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 03:52:41 -0400 > From: Seth Johnson > To: declan@well.com > CC: politech@politechbot.com, sivav@pobox.com > > > Declan: > > Charles Sims' comments illustrate the problem of encouraging > people to equate the protection of private interests with > the issues surrounding content control. His emphasis on the > question of access in his final comment plays that card. > However, the issues surrounding the impact of content > control on the use of information, are not at all the same > as the issues associated with the protection of private > interests. > > Copyright (more specifically in Constitutional terms, > "exclusive Rights") is a limited, statutory right that > Congress may grant (or for that matter, deny) for specific > purposes (promoting the progress of the Useful Arts and > Sciences) and within specific parameters with which we are > all familiar (the First and Fourth Amendments ad nauseum, as > well as numerous other aspects of the US Constitution which > articulate rights that are *not* statutory and in that sense > limited in provenance). > > He also hangs his hat on the fact that under the current > statute, fair use is no more than an exception to copyright > (and only a defense that one may offer after the fact of > being prosecuted). In the service of his thesis that it is > supposedly fraudulent to say "fair use is dying" at the > hands of the DMCA, he overlooks the fact that the fair use > provision can no longer work under the current state of > technology in our society. > > In strict Constitutional terms, copyright is an exception to > the principles of a free society -- not the other way > around. "Fair use" is merely an escape valve (one of only a > few!) that has been built into an outdated legal tradition, > however fortuitously. > > As soon as it no longer serves its purpose, "exclusive > rights" must be made to serve core Constitutional > principles. However long it takes for people to realize > this, there's really no getting around it. It's easy to > lean on the law and treat it as the foundation for one's > analysis, because as the law it must presumably be endorsed; > but Charles' comments are a perfect illustration of the old > saw, "Some people are in the law for the law; others are in > it for the people." > > He may simply be being literal and pedantic, but for him to > target the proposition that fair use is dying at the hands > of the DMCA on the basis of the statutory structure, rather > than to consider what those who make that very true > statement really mean, certainly doesn't help things. > > Seth Johnson > > Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > > Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 09:43:20 -0400 > > From: "Charles Sims" > > > > Sloganeering is not journalism, and to repeat (or > > republish) the canard that "fair use is dying" is > > preposterous. As you know, and as your readers > > should know, the fair use doctrine of copyright > > law is unchanged since 1976 (indeed, since the > > 1840's, when Justice Story famously explicated it), > > and it has not been amended or altered by the DMCA. > > The DMCA does not impact, at all, the fair use > > rights that US law has provided for more than 160 > > years. It has not amended, or changed, Section > > 107 of the copyright law, which now embodies the > > fair use defense, at all. So quote and criticise > > and review to your heart's content; but try to > > avoid the knowing falsehoods. You want to stare > > at or photograph a Picasso in someone's home, or a > > never-published manuscript of Orwell in someone's > > office, the better to criticise or review them? > > You can't. But not because of the DMCA; the > > reason is that fair use has never been a tool to > > obtain access. > > -- > > [CC] Counter-copyright: > http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/cc/cc.html > > I reserve no rights restricting copying, modification or > distribution of this incidentally recorded communication. > Original authorship should be attributed reasonably, but > only so far as such an expectation might hold for usual > practice in ordinary social discourse to which one holds no > claim of exclusive rights. > > ____________________________ > New Yorkers for Fair Use - > because it's either fair use or useless.... > BTW - no to evanglilize: But that was possible because Seth and I were prepared > for that oppurtunity and had our P&Q's in order with a program in place and ready > to go. > > It didn't happen by magic. The reason why we took them by sprise was because > we set up an ambush and Jack Valenti walked right in. > > If he does this a few more times, we're gonna win this BIG. > > > > There should be an opt-in mechanism for people who wish to become more > > involved in any particular action. I liked the way that Stakeholders > > 7/17 "sucked you in", when you replied to the alert. That gets you > > right into it, like free-skyarov was in the first days. > > > > > -- > __________________________ > > Brooklyn Linux Solutions > __________________________ > http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting > http://www.nylxs.com/radio - Free Software Radio Show and Archives > http://www.brooklynonline.com - For the love of Brooklyn > http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software > http://www.nyfairuse.org - The foundation of Democracy > http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net > http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/mp3/dr.mp3 - Imagine my surprise when I saw you... > http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn.... > > 1-718-382-5752 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > free-sklyarov mailing list > free-sklyarov@zork.net > http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > -- __________________________ Brooklyn Linux Solutions __________________________ http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.nylxs.com/radio - Free Software Radio Show and Archives http://www.brooklynonline.com - For the love of Brooklyn http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www.nyfairuse.org - The foundation of Democracy http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/mp3/dr.mp3 - Imagine my surprise when I saw you... http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn.... 1-718-382-5752 From ilya at theIlya.com Fri Aug 9 00:45:31 2002 From: ilya at theIlya.com (ilya@theIlya.com) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:55 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: <20020809070527.GY23240@zork.net> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 That nessage was crossposted to anti-dmca, I think, and I'm pretty sure that my figure is accurate. It is understandable why free-sklyarov has shrinked. He is more or less free now, after all.... On Fri, 9 Aug 2002, Seth David Schoen wrote: > ilya@theIlya.com writes: > > > I'm afraid you are overestimating our numbers. I think there are total of > > about 2000-3000 people reading *this* message. > > There are now 565 subscribers to free-sklyarov, down from a high of > about 1,000. > > -- > Seth David Schoen | Reading is a right, not a feature! > http://www.loyalty.org/~schoen/ | -- Kathryn Myronuk > http://vitanuova.loyalty.org/ | > > _______________________________________________ > free-sklyarov mailing list > free-sklyarov@zork.net > http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: pgpenvelope 2.9.0 - http://pgpenvelope.sourceforge.net/ iD8DBQE9U3Mh84S94bALfyURApH3AKDLTBCJEGykevG4p1zRk8oQLnH9dACg0Ojt hWSg0TnX4QaoqRyoCOcjnas= =Ck/6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From alex at 2600.COM Fri Aug 9 06:59:56 2002 From: alex at 2600.COM (Alexander J. Urbelis) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:55 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: <20020809054654.E068AFC94@proclus.dyndns.org> Message-ID: State and county civil liberties boards tend to be receptive to these issues as well; it's probably worth the email. Alex http://www.VerizonEatsPoop.com http://www.NYCLU-Suffolk.org > > Or Citizens Informed, Action Information System/Alliance. > From tompoe at renonevada.net Fri Aug 9 11:13:16 2002 From: tompoe at renonevada.net (tompoe@renonevada.net) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:55 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions References: <20020809020012.C4394@www2.mrbrklyn.com> <20020809060932.13B26FCB1@proclus.dyndns.org> <20020809031221.E4741@www2.mrbrklyn.com> Message-ID: <3D54063C.7040903@renonevada.net> Hi, Ruben: Layoff EFF. I used EFF because they are our saviors. Got a legal problem, go to EFF. That's their role. And, if you had read what I had to say, you would realize that EFF doesn't do the whole shebang, so the need to establish a web site that does, is a nice idea. It's also possible there is already a site that watches a broad range of events, and has the send email to your representative features. Do they track what we've responded to, like EFF does? Who knows?! The idea had nothing to do with EFF, specifically. I used them as an example in the Subject Line, because they were the first acronym to come to mind. We can use your NYFU just as easily. Makes no difference, what, as long as it is recognizable to alot of mail lists, Users'Groups, web sites like Declan's, etc. There's another thought that should be raised, since we all agree so far that both preaching to the choir and reaching out to the Internet Community needs to be done. The USA PATRIOTS' ACT! An impenetrable name, eh? Rename the Linux Army to the PATRIOTS' ARMY, and ride the wave. Just a thought. Thanks, Tom Ruben I Safir wrote: - - -snip - - - > > But I'm definetely telling everyone that NY Fair Use is not going to be taking > leads or an action from EFF just because they ran their 43rd alert this week. > > > Let EFF do what it wants to do. But we have our own leadership and CLEAR > vision of what we want to do. > > Thanks > > Ruben > > On 2002.08.09 02:09 proclus@gnu-darwin.org wrote: > >>Ruben's point is important. A single message to each member group >>would be sufficient (then maybe nyfairuse will join ;-), and they can >>discuss a single message among themselves in a manner that is >>appropriate for their own group. >> >>There should be an opt-in mechanism for people who wish to become more >>involved in any particular action. I liked the way that Stakeholders >>7/17 "sucked you in", when you replied to the alert. That gets you >>right into it, like free-skyarov was in the first days. >> >>Regards, >>proclus >>http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ >> >> >>On 9 Aug, Ruben I Safir wrote: >> >>>defenitly count out NY Fair Use. The noise level is alreay too high. >>> >>> >>>>I think Jay has a point about the SPAM. On the other hand, I don't think >>>>it serves much purpose if a singular message is posted on each list, and >>>>that's the end of it. I think the need to post and cross-post, and make >>>>sure people recognize something is happening is necessary. >>>>Thanks, >>>>Tom Poe >>>>Open Studios >>>>Reno, NV >>>> >>>>proclus@gnu-darwin.org wrote: >>>> >>>>>How about "Freedom Axis"? I like the general idea to encompass groups >>>>>who value free software, open standards, fair use, cryptography, >>>>> privacy, etc. Speaking for myself, I already forward important alerts >>>>>to the lists that I administrate, about 300 subscribers, plus >>>>>free-skyarov sometimes. I don't consider it spam, because the >>>>>subscribers have an expressed interest. I'm sure that others are doing >>>>>likewise. >>>>> >>>>>How is this proposal different from what we are doing already? EFF >>>>>action alerts, Politech, etc? How to do we avoid burnout and too much >>>>>email? >>>>> >>>>>Regards, >>>>>proclus >>>>>http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ >>>>> >>>>>On 9 Aug, Jay Sulzberger wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, tompoe@renonevada.net wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Hi: Let's see what you folks think about the following: >>>>>>>A web site that lists Users'Groups [all kinds, flavors, etc.] >>>>>>>A web site that lists web sites [supporters] >>>>>>>A web site that lists individuals [supporters] >>>>>>> >>>>>>>The name of the web site: The Linux Army >>>>>> >>>>>>This is close to something I have been considering. It is an important >>>>>>thing to do. We should have been at today's FCC meeting. >>>>>> >>>>>>More than a simple alert system is needed. Organization, planning, >>>>>>discipline, and experience will help us. >>>>>> >>>>>>Tom, I love your stuff and this idea. but I have one objection: >>>>>> >>>>>>The name is wrong. Not "Linux", and not even "GNU/Linux". Perhaps not >>>>>>even "Free Software". Right now I do not have a name I like, but I often >>>>>>use the phrase "owners and makers". "stakeholders" is also a good word. >>>>>>The Englobulators plots', if successful, will trammel us as "consumers", but >>>>>>they will do worse to us as owners and makers: they will end our rights to >>>>>>own and make and distribute our own stuff. >>>>>> >>>>>>Also we need not allow any SPAM whatsoever. We can quickly distribute >>>>>>information to many centers without allowing SPAM. We may not even need so >>>>>>much bandwidth that many distribution points are required. Perhaps a >>>>>>mailing list with an archive which we allow to be mirrored, subject, of >>>>>>course, to our strict license, and partly secured by standard cryptographic >>>>>>means ;) >>>>>> >>>>>>oo--JS. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>On this page, those who agree to the following are listed: >>>>>>>1] Agree to open their sites to SPAM and cross-posting messages for TAKE >>>>>>>ACTION events >>>>>>>2] All messages with EFF will be posted for list members of Users' >>>>>>>Groups, web sites and individuals [upon moderator approval] >>>>>>>3] All members of The Linux Army will set up a folder on their mail >>>>>>>clients to receive all messages with EFF in the Subject Line, so as not >>>>>>>to have an undue amount of cross-posting and SPAM messages in their Inboxes. >>>>>>>4] Now, whenever there are ACTIONS TO TAKE, the hundreds of thousands of >>>>>>>members of The Linux Army are alerted, and can, in most cases, with just >>>>>>>three clicks, "Do Their Duty". >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Slashdot is good for what it does, and The Linux Army, ugly as the SPAM >>>>>>>aspect is, needs to be alerted to TAKE ACTION when needed. The only way >>>>>>>to do that is to agree to a SPAM arrangement. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>There's a sample page at: >>>>>>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/linuxarmy.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>>If the idea is viable, then the next step is to decide who best to host >>>>>>>the site? >>>>>>>Thanks, >>>>>>>Tom Poe >>>>>>>Open Studios >>>>>>>Reno, NV >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Seth Johnson wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Seth Finkelstein wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Well, what works? I must admit I've not had a >>>>>>>>>great deal of success myself. Maybe there's nothing we >>>>>>>>>can do. I don't claim to be an expert at such >>>>>>>>>convincing. I'm only sharing empirical problems I've >>>>>>>>>encountered from my own experiences in trying to >>>>>>>>>convince skeptical people. If the world is divided into >>>>>>>>>the unconvertable, and the choir singing >>>>>>>>>they're-coming-to-take-us-away, that's disheartening. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Actually, organizing is best done by pitching to the choir. >>>>>>>>The key is to show those who agree with you something in >>>>>>>>motion, and thereby find the ones who are looking for >>>>>>>>something real to be a part of. That's how you recruit the >>>>>>>>leaders and build a movement. Organizers "call to emulate." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>It isn't about spin or consciousness-raising, which the >>>>>>>>"preaching to the choir" line implies, whenever you hear it >>>>>>>>brought against you. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Seth Johnson >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>-- >>>>>>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/ >>>>>>>http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ >>>>>>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ >>>>>>>-- >>>>>>>Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org >>>>>>>and register for the TAKE ACTION page. >>>>>>>If you can donate $5, that'll help, too >>>>>>>-- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>free-sklyarov mailing list >>>>>>>free-sklyarov@zork.net >>>>>>>http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>free-sklyarov mailing list >>>>>>free-sklyarov@zork.net >>>>>>http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>-- >>>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/ >>>>http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ >>>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ >>>>-- >>>>Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org >>>>and register for the TAKE ACTION page. >>>>If you can donate $5, that'll help, too >>>>-- >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>free-sklyarov mailing list >>>>free-sklyarov@zork.net >>>>http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov >>>> >>> >>-- >>Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ >>-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- >>Version: 3.1 >>GMU/S d+@ s: a+ C++++ UBOULI++++$ P+ L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O >>M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-(--)@ b !DI D- G e++++ >>h--- r+++ y++++ >>------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ >> >> >> > -- http://www.studioforrecording.org/ http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ -- Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org and register for the TAKE ACTION page. If you can donate $5, that'll help, too -- From jays at panix.com Fri Aug 9 11:39:09 2002 From: jays at panix.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:55 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: <3D53451A.6030306@renonevada.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, tompoe@renonevada.net wrote: > Hi: Let's see what you folks think about the following: > A web site that lists Users'Groups [all kinds, flavors, etc.] > A web site that lists web sites [supporters] > A web site that lists individuals [supporters] Perhaps there is already such a website that might serve the purpose: http://www.digitalrights.org If more is needed perhaps the site's owner-operator might add some pages. oo--JS. From proclus at gnu-darwin.org Fri Aug 9 12:35:26 2002 From: proclus at gnu-darwin.org (proclus@gnu-darwin.org) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:56 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: <3D54063C.7040903@renonevada.net> Message-ID: <200208091937.g79JZX701089@astrolabei> On 9 Aug, tompoe@renonevada.net wrote: > Do they track > what we've responded to, like EFF does? Who knows?! The idea had > nothing to do with EFF, specifically. I used them as an example in the > Subject Line, because they were the first acronym to come to mind. I thought of the EFF Action Center alerts, which are few in number, well focused, and impactful IMHO. Since signing on with it, I have not been flooded with superfluous messages. The Alliance would be like this, but organizations could join as a block, and there would be a cryptographic lock, so that the content can be verified. That way, if you get an alert on your cell phone, you don't go speeding off to a non-event ;-}. Verification also provides a fairly reliable mechanism for checking that member organizations are on-line and getting the alert, how many are opting in, etc. BTW, does the EFF Action Center have an RSS channel? The Alliance leadership could consist of member organization list/web admins, or others chosen by each individual group. Leadership is required to avoid clogging the channel with unwanted messages. If we can get this working, then it will be adapted for other kinds of activism, so that alerts can be channelled to the correct groups. I think that we should get Digital Speech Project on board, if possible. http://www.digitalspeech.org How about GeekPAC and and AOTC? FSF? I'm sure that others will have suggestions. Is anyone listening? I think that we should fork a list for getting this started, and getting more numbers. > The USA PATRIOTS' ACT! An impenetrable > name, eh? Rename the Linux Army to the PATRIOTS' ARMY, and ride the > wave. Just a thought. Patriot, like geek and hacker, is a little loaded. Although it has some bandwagoning potential, there is a credibility issue with naming yourself a patriot, as it were. I like the names that include Citizens, Voters, Activists, etc, which implies political engagement, and counters the tenancy to label the public as mere consumers, who are defined as non-stakeholders. Regards, proclus http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ > Thanks, > Tom > > Ruben I Safir wrote: > - - -snip - - - >> >> But I'm definetely telling everyone that NY Fair Use is not going to be taking >> leads or an action from EFF just because they ran their 43rd alert this week. >> >> >> Let EFF do what it wants to do. But we have our own leadership and CLEAR >> vision of what we want to do. >> >> Thanks >> >> Ruben >> >> On 2002.08.09 02:09 proclus@gnu-darwin.org wrote: >> >>>Ruben's point is important. A single message to each member group >>>would be sufficient (then maybe nyfairuse will join ;-), and they can >>>discuss a single message among themselves in a manner that is >>>appropriate for their own group. >>> >>>There should be an opt-in mechanism for people who wish to become more >>>involved in any particular action. I liked the way that Stakeholders >>>7/17 "sucked you in", when you replied to the alert. That gets you >>>right into it, like free-skyarov was in the first days. >>> >>>Regards, >>>proclus >>>http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ >>> >>> >>>On 9 Aug, Ruben I Safir wrote: >>> >>>>defenitly count out NY Fair Use. The noise level is alreay too high. >>>> >>>> >>>>>I think Jay has a point about the SPAM. On the other hand, I don't think >>>>>it serves much purpose if a singular message is posted on each list, and >>>>>that's the end of it. I think the need to post and cross-post, and make >>>>>sure people recognize something is happening is necessary. >>>>>Thanks, >>>>>Tom Poe >>>>>Open Studios >>>>>Reno, NV >>>>> >>>>>proclus@gnu-darwin.org wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>How about "Freedom Axis"? I like the general idea to encompass groups >>>>>>who value free software, open standards, fair use, cryptography, >>>>>> privacy, etc. Speaking for myself, I already forward important alerts >>>>>>to the lists that I administrate, about 300 subscribers, plus >>>>>>free-skyarov sometimes. I don't consider it spam, because the >>>>>>subscribers have an expressed interest. I'm sure that others are doing >>>>>>likewise. >>>>>> >>>>>>How is this proposal different from what we are doing already? EFF >>>>>>action alerts, Politech, etc? How to do we avoid burnout and too much >>>>>>email? >>>>>> >>>>>>Regards, >>>>>>proclus >>>>>>http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ >>>>>> >>>>>>On 9 Aug, Jay Sulzberger wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, tompoe@renonevada.net wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Hi: Let's see what you folks think about the following: >>>>>>>>A web site that lists Users'Groups [all kinds, flavors, etc.] >>>>>>>>A web site that lists web sites [supporters] >>>>>>>>A web site that lists individuals [supporters] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>The name of the web site: The Linux Army >>>>>>> >>>>>>>This is close to something I have been considering. It is an important >>>>>>>thing to do. We should have been at today's FCC meeting. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>More than a simple alert system is needed. Organization, planning, >>>>>>>discipline, and experience will help us. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Tom, I love your stuff and this idea. but I have one objection: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>The name is wrong. Not "Linux", and not even "GNU/Linux". Perhaps not >>>>>>>even "Free Software". Right now I do not have a name I like, but I often >>>>>>>use the phrase "owners and makers". "stakeholders" is also a good word. >>>>>>>The Englobulators plots', if successful, will trammel us as "consumers", but >>>>>>>they will do worse to us as owners and makers: they will end our rights to >>>>>>>own and make and distribute our own stuff. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Also we need not allow any SPAM whatsoever. We can quickly distribute >>>>>>>information to many centers without allowing SPAM. We may not even need so >>>>>>>much bandwidth that many distribution points are required. Perhaps a >>>>>>>mailing list with an archive which we allow to be mirrored, subject, of >>>>>>>course, to our strict license, and partly secured by standard cryptographic >>>>>>>means ;) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>oo--JS. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On this page, those who agree to the following are listed: >>>>>>>>1] Agree to open their sites to SPAM and cross-posting messages for TAKE >>>>>>>>ACTION events >>>>>>>>2] All messages with EFF will be posted for list members of Users' >>>>>>>>Groups, web sites and individuals [upon moderator approval] >>>>>>>>3] All members of The Linux Army will set up a folder on their mail >>>>>>>>clients to receive all messages with EFF in the Subject Line, so as not >>>>>>>>to have an undue amount of cross-posting and SPAM messages in their Inboxes. >>>>>>>>4] Now, whenever there are ACTIONS TO TAKE, the hundreds of thousands of >>>>>>>>members of The Linux Army are alerted, and can, in most cases, with just >>>>>>>>three clicks, "Do Their Duty". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Slashdot is good for what it does, and The Linux Army, ugly as the SPAM >>>>>>>>aspect is, needs to be alerted to TAKE ACTION when needed. The only way >>>>>>>>to do that is to agree to a SPAM arrangement. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>There's a sample page at: >>>>>>>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/linuxarmy.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>If the idea is viable, then the next step is to decide who best to host >>>>>>>>the site? >>>>>>>>Thanks, >>>>>>>>Tom Poe >>>>>>>>Open Studios >>>>>>>>Reno, NV >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Seth Johnson wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Seth Finkelstein wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Well, what works? I must admit I've not had a >>>>>>>>>>great deal of success myself. Maybe there's nothing we >>>>>>>>>>can do. I don't claim to be an expert at such >>>>>>>>>>convincing. I'm only sharing empirical problems I've >>>>>>>>>>encountered from my own experiences in trying to >>>>>>>>>>convince skeptical people. If the world is divided into >>>>>>>>>>the unconvertable, and the choir singing >>>>>>>>>>they're-coming-to-take-us-away, that's disheartening. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Actually, organizing is best done by pitching to the choir. >>>>>>>>>The key is to show those who agree with you something in >>>>>>>>>motion, and thereby find the ones who are looking for >>>>>>>>>something real to be a part of. That's how you recruit the >>>>>>>>>leaders and build a movement. Organizers "call to emulate." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>It isn't about spin or consciousness-raising, which the >>>>>>>>>"preaching to the choir" line implies, whenever you hear it >>>>>>>>>brought against you. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Seth Johnson >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>-- >>>>>>>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/ >>>>>>>>http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ >>>>>>>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ >>>>>>>>-- >>>>>>>>Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org >>>>>>>>and register for the TAKE ACTION page. >>>>>>>>If you can donate $5, that'll help, too >>>>>>>>-- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>free-sklyarov mailing list >>>>>>>>free-sklyarov@zork.net >>>>>>>>http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>free-sklyarov mailing list >>>>>>>free-sklyarov@zork.net >>>>>>>http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>-- >>>>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/ >>>>>http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ >>>>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ >>>>>-- >>>>>Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org >>>>>and register for the TAKE ACTION page. >>>>>If you can donate $5, that'll help, too >>>>>-- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>free-sklyarov mailing list >>>>>free-sklyarov@zork.net >>>>>http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov >>>>> >>>> >>>-- >>>Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ >>>-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- >>>Version: 3.1 >>>GMU/S d+@ s: a+ C++++ UBOULI++++$ P+ L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O >>>M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-(--)@ b !DI D- G e++++ >>>h--- r+++ y++++ >>>------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ >>> >>> >>> >> > > -- Visit proclus realm! http://proclus.tripod.com/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a+ C++++ UBULI++++$ P+ L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-(--)@ b !DI D- G e++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://frotz.zork.net/pipermail/free-sklyarov/attachments/20020809/9ec48d1c/attachment.pgp From rabbi at quickie.net Fri Aug 9 12:45:17 2002 From: rabbi at quickie.net (Len Sassaman) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:56 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Tracking who is on the free-sklyarov email list In-Reply-To: <00f901c23e2f$1ca11920$6501a8c0@ne2.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: Of course, none of us who are concerned about "web bugs" use HTML-poisoned email readers... right? On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Richard M. Smith wrote: > Hi, > > Here's a quick note about the HTML email message which was sent > yesterday to the list and was entitled "Take me off of this, SKYAROW > MAILING LIST!!". The message was "bugged" to track who read the email > message. The Web bug was the image of the postage stamp included in the > message. > > The results of this tracking can be found here: > > http://www.havetheyreadityet.com/HaveTheyReadItYet/0/RHIE/EEUT/VJFD/EDBH > /24eb1347-Enter.htm > > See ya, > Richard M. Smith > http://www.ComputerBytesMan.com > > > > > ################################################################# > ################################################################# > ################################################################# > ##### > ##### > ##### > ################################################################# > ################################################################# > ################################################################# > > _______________________________________________ > free-sklyarov mailing list > free-sklyarov@zork.net > http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > --Len. From rms at computerbytesman.com Fri Aug 9 12:48:54 2002 From: rms at computerbytesman.com (Richard M. Smith) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:56 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Tracking who is on the free-sklyarov email list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002701c23fdd$cb4defc0$6501a8c0@ne2.client2.attbi.com> I find HTML email extremely useful for archiving news articles from Web sites. I have a couple of gigabytes of archived articles in Outlook. For most other uses, I prefer plain text email. Richard -----Original Message----- From: Len Sassaman [mailto:rabbi@quickie.net] Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 3:45 PM To: Richard M. Smith Cc: free-sklyarov@zork.net Subject: Re: [free-sklyarov] Tracking who is on the free-sklyarov email list Of course, none of us who are concerned about "web bugs" use HTML-poisoned email readers... right? On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Richard M. Smith wrote: > Hi, > > Here's a quick note about the HTML email message which was sent > yesterday to the list and was entitled "Take me off of this, SKYAROW > MAILING LIST!!". The message was "bugged" to track who read the email > message. The Web bug was the image of the postage stamp included in the > message. > > The results of this tracking can be found here: > > http://www.havetheyreadityet.com/HaveTheyReadItYet/0/RHIE/EEUT/VJFD/EDBH > /24eb1347-Enter.htm > > See ya, > Richard M. Smith > http://www.ComputerBytesMan.com > > > > > ################################################################# > ################################################################# > ################################################################# > ##### > ##### > ##### > ################################################################# > ################################################################# > ################################################################# > > _______________________________________________ > free-sklyarov mailing list > free-sklyarov@zork.net > http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > --Len. From jeme at brelin.net Fri Aug 9 14:11:29 2002 From: jeme at brelin.net (Jeme A Brelin) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:56 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Tracking who is on the free-sklyarov email list In-Reply-To: <002701c23fdd$cb4defc0$6501a8c0@ne2.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Aug 2002, Richard M. Smith wrote: > I find HTML email extremely useful for archiving news articles from > Web sites. I have a couple of gigabytes of archived articles in > Outlook. For most other uses, I prefer plain text email. Well, while this is extraordinarily off-topic, I'm going to toss in a few cents. First, are you simply emailing the HTML from the websites to yourself? I wouldn't call that HTML mail because it's not correspondence. It's more like an attachment. Second, it's utterly useless to archive news articles from web sites until those articles are accompanied by gpg (or similar) signatures that can ensure the authorship or publication origin of the work. I can mock up any old trash in the CNN template and try to pass it off as "censored news that CNN removed from the site after one hour!" It's worthless. Digital signatures should be required for digital publication. This would ensure both the proper credit (for those to whom such things matter) and provide insurance against modification against the author's will (the whole reason we, as a public, support copyrights). J. -- ----------------- Jeme A Brelin jeme@brelin.net ----------------- [cc] counter-copyright http://www.openlaw.org From ruben at mrbrklyn.com Fri Aug 9 15:07:47 2002 From: ruben at mrbrklyn.com (Ruben Safir) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:56 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: <3D54063C.7040903@renonevada.net> References: <20020809020012.C4394@www2.mrbrklyn.com> <20020809060932.13B26FCB1@proclus.dyndns.org> <20020809031221.E4741@www2.mrbrklyn.com> <3D54063C.7040903@renonevada.net> Message-ID: <20020809220747.GB10046@www2.mrbrklyn.com> On Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 11:13:16AM -0700, tompoe@renonevada.net wrote: > Hi, Ruben: Layoff EFF. I used EFF because they are our saviors. Got a > legal problem, go to EFF. That's their role. EFFis a legal defense. That is corect and that is my point Tom. Read the message again. Nobody is attacking EFF, but I disagree with much of their advocacy and think we should leave EFF to do what it does best. Ruben And, if you had read what I > had to say, you would realize that EFF doesn't do the whole shebang, so > the need to establish a web site that does, is a nice idea. It's also > possible there is already a site that watches a broad range of events, > and has the send email to your representative features. Do they track > what we've responded to, like EFF does? Who knows?! The idea had > nothing to do with EFF, specifically. I used them as an example in the > Subject Line, because they were the first acronym to come to mind. > > We can use your NYFU just as easily. Makes no difference, what, as long > as it is recognizable to alot of mail lists, Users'Groups, web sites > like Declan's, etc. > > There's another thought that should be raised, since we all agree so far > that both preaching to the choir and reaching out to the Internet > Community needs to be done. The USA PATRIOTS' ACT! An impenetrable > name, eh? Rename the Linux Army to the PATRIOTS' ARMY, and ride the > wave. Just a thought. > Thanks, > Tom > > Ruben I Safir wrote: > - - -snip - - - > > > >But I'm definetely telling everyone that NY Fair Use is not going to be > >taking > >leads or an action from EFF just because they ran their 43rd alert this > >week. > > > > > >Let EFF do what it wants to do. But we have our own leadership and CLEAR > >vision of what we want to do. > > > >Thanks > > > >Ruben > > > >On 2002.08.09 02:09 proclus@gnu-darwin.org wrote: > > > >>Ruben's point is important. A single message to each member group > >>would be sufficient (then maybe nyfairuse will join ;-), and they can > >>discuss a single message among themselves in a manner that is > >>appropriate for their own group. > >> > >>There should be an opt-in mechanism for people who wish to become more > >>involved in any particular action. I liked the way that Stakeholders > >>7/17 "sucked you in", when you replied to the alert. That gets you > >>right into it, like free-skyarov was in the first days. > >> > >>Regards, > >>proclus > >>http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ > >> > >> > >>On 9 Aug, Ruben I Safir wrote: > >> > >>>defenitly count out NY Fair Use. The noise level is alreay too high. > >>> > >>> > >>>>I think Jay has a point about the SPAM. On the other hand, I don't > >>>>think it serves much purpose if a singular message is posted on each > >>>>list, and that's the end of it. I think the need to post and > >>>>cross-post, and make sure people recognize something is happening is > >>>>necessary. > >>>>Thanks, > >>>>Tom Poe > >>>>Open Studios > >>>>Reno, NV > >>>> > >>>>proclus@gnu-darwin.org wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>How about "Freedom Axis"? I like the general idea to encompass groups > >>>>>who value free software, open standards, fair use, cryptography, > >>>>>privacy, etc. Speaking for myself, I already forward important alerts > >>>>>to the lists that I administrate, about 300 subscribers, plus > >>>>>free-skyarov sometimes. I don't consider it spam, because the > >>>>>subscribers have an expressed interest. I'm sure that others are doing > >>>>>likewise. > >>>>> > >>>>>How is this proposal different from what we are doing already? EFF > >>>>>action alerts, Politech, etc? How to do we avoid burnout and too much > >>>>>email? > >>>>> > >>>>>Regards, > >>>>>proclus > >>>>>http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ > >>>>> > >>>>>On 9 Aug, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, tompoe@renonevada.net wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>Hi: Let's see what you folks think about the following: > >>>>>>>A web site that lists Users'Groups [all kinds, flavors, etc.] > >>>>>>>A web site that lists web sites [supporters] > >>>>>>>A web site that lists individuals [supporters] > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>The name of the web site: The Linux Army > >>>>>> > >>>>>>This is close to something I have been considering. It is an > >>>>>>important > >>>>>>thing to do. We should have been at today's FCC meeting. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>More than a simple alert system is needed. Organization, planning, > >>>>>>discipline, and experience will help us. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>Tom, I love your stuff and this idea. but I have one objection: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>The name is wrong. Not "Linux", and not even "GNU/Linux". Perhaps > >>>>>>not > >>>>>>even "Free Software". Right now I do not have a name I like, but I > >>>>>>often > >>>>>>use the phrase "owners and makers". "stakeholders" is also a good > >>>>>>word. > >>>>>>The Englobulators plots', if successful, will trammel us as > >>>>>>"consumers", but > >>>>>>they will do worse to us as owners and makers: they will end our > >>>>>>rights to > >>>>>>own and make and distribute our own stuff. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>Also we need not allow any SPAM whatsoever. We can quickly distribute > >>>>>>information to many centers without allowing SPAM. We may not even > >>>>>>need so > >>>>>>much bandwidth that many distribution points are required. Perhaps a > >>>>>>mailing list with an archive which we allow to be mirrored, subject, > >>>>>>of > >>>>>>course, to our strict license, and partly secured by standard > >>>>>>cryptographic > >>>>>>means ;) > >>>>>> > >>>>>>oo--JS. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>On this page, those who agree to the following are listed: > >>>>>>>1] Agree to open their sites to SPAM and cross-posting messages for > >>>>>>>TAKE > >>>>>>>ACTION events > >>>>>>>2] All messages with EFF will be posted for list members of Users' > >>>>>>>Groups, web sites and individuals [upon moderator approval] > >>>>>>>3] All members of The Linux Army will set up a folder on their mail > >>>>>>>clients to receive all messages with EFF in the Subject Line, so as > >>>>>>>not > >>>>>>>to have an undue amount of cross-posting and SPAM messages in their > >>>>>>>Inboxes. > >>>>>>>4] Now, whenever there are ACTIONS TO TAKE, the hundreds of > >>>>>>>thousands of > >>>>>>>members of The Linux Army are alerted, and can, in most cases, with > >>>>>>>just > >>>>>>>three clicks, "Do Their Duty". > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>Slashdot is good for what it does, and The Linux Army, ugly as the > >>>>>>>SPAM > >>>>>>>aspect is, needs to be alerted to TAKE ACTION when needed. The only > >>>>>>>way > >>>>>>>to do that is to agree to a SPAM arrangement. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>There's a sample page at: > >>>>>>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/linuxarmy.html > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>If the idea is viable, then the next step is to decide who best to > >>>>>>>host > >>>>>>>the site? > >>>>>>>Thanks, > >>>>>>>Tom Poe > >>>>>>>Open Studios > >>>>>>>Reno, NV > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>Seth Johnson wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>Seth Finkelstein wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Well, what works? I must admit I've not had a > >>>>>>>>>great deal of success myself. Maybe there's nothing we > >>>>>>>>>can do. I don't claim to be an expert at such > >>>>>>>>>convincing. I'm only sharing empirical problems I've > >>>>>>>>>encountered from my own experiences in trying to > >>>>>>>>>convince skeptical people. If the world is divided into > >>>>>>>>>the unconvertable, and the choir singing > >>>>>>>>>they're-coming-to-take-us-away, that's disheartening. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>Actually, organizing is best done by pitching to the choir. > >>>>>>>>The key is to show those who agree with you something in > >>>>>>>>motion, and thereby find the ones who are looking for > >>>>>>>>something real to be a part of. That's how you recruit the > >>>>>>>>leaders and build a movement. Organizers "call to emulate." > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>It isn't about spin or consciousness-raising, which the > >>>>>>>>"preaching to the choir" line implies, whenever you hear it > >>>>>>>>brought against you. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>Seth Johnson > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>-- > >>>>>>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/ > >>>>>>>http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ > >>>>>>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ > >>>>>>>-- > >>>>>>>Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org > >>>>>>>and register for the TAKE ACTION page. > >>>>>>>If you can donate $5, that'll help, too > >>>>>>>-- > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>free-sklyarov mailing list > >>>>>>>free-sklyarov@zork.net > >>>>>>>http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>>>free-sklyarov mailing list > >>>>>>free-sklyarov@zork.net > >>>>>>http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>-- > >>>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/ > >>>>http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ > >>>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ > >>>>-- > >>>>Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org > >>>>and register for the TAKE ACTION page. > >>>>If you can donate $5, that'll help, too > >>>>-- > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>free-sklyarov mailing list > >>>>free-sklyarov@zork.net > >>>>http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > >>>> > >>> > >>-- > >>Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ > >>-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > >>Version: 3.1 > >>GMU/S d+@ s: a+ C++++ UBOULI++++$ P+ L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O > >>M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-(--)@ b !DI D- G e++++ > >>h--- r+++ y++++ > >>------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ > >> > >> > >> > > > > > -- > http://www.studioforrecording.org/ > http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ > http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ > -- > Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org > and register for the TAKE ACTION page. > If you can donate $5, that'll help, too > -- > > > _______________________________________________ > free-sklyarov mailing list > free-sklyarov@zork.net > http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov -- __________________________ Brooklyn Linux Solutions __________________________ http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.nylxs.com/radio - Free Software Radio Show and Archives http://www.brooklynonline.com - For the love of Brooklyn http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www.nyfairuse.org - The foundation of Democracy http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/mp3/dr.mp3 - Imagine my surprise when I saw you... http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn.... 1-718-382-5752 From ruben at mrbrklyn.com Fri Aug 9 15:03:07 2002 From: ruben at mrbrklyn.com (Ruben Safir) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:56 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Copyright Contradictions In-Reply-To: <200208091937.g79JZX701089@astrolabei> References: <3D54063C.7040903@renonevada.net> <200208091937.g79JZX701089@astrolabei> Message-ID: <20020809220307.GA10046@www2.mrbrklyn.com> In regards to the Geekpac et al I would refer eveyone to my article on the Linux Journal regarding this and the idea of lobbying in general. Ruben On Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 03:35:26PM -0400, proclus@gnu-darwin.org wrote: > On 9 Aug, tompoe@renonevada.net wrote: > > Do they track > > what we've responded to, like EFF does? Who knows?! The idea had > > nothing to do with EFF, specifically. I used them as an example in the > > Subject Line, because they were the first acronym to come to mind. > > I thought of the EFF Action Center alerts, which are few in number, > well focused, and impactful IMHO. Since signing on with it, I have not > been flooded with superfluous messages. The Alliance would be like > this, but organizations could join as a block, and there would be a > cryptographic lock, so that the content can be verified. That way, if > you get an alert on your cell phone, you don't go speeding off to a > non-event ;-}. Verification also provides a fairly reliable mechanism > for checking that member organizations are on-line and getting the > alert, how many are opting in, etc. > > BTW, does the EFF Action Center have an RSS channel? > > The Alliance leadership could consist of member organization list/web > admins, or others chosen by each individual group. Leadership is > required to avoid clogging the channel with unwanted messages. If we > can get this working, then it will be adapted for other kinds of > activism, so that alerts can be channelled to the correct groups. I > think that we should get Digital Speech Project on board, if possible. > > http://www.digitalspeech.org > > How about GeekPAC and and AOTC? FSF? I'm sure that others will have > suggestions. Is anyone listening? I think that we should fork a list > for getting this started, and getting more numbers. > > > The USA PATRIOTS' ACT! An impenetrable > > name, eh? Rename the Linux Army to the PATRIOTS' ARMY, and ride the > > wave. Just a thought. > > Patriot, like geek and hacker, is a little loaded. Although it has > some bandwagoning potential, there is a credibility issue with naming > yourself a patriot, as it were. I like the names that include Citizens, > Voters, Activists, etc, which implies political engagement, and counters > the tenancy to label the public as mere consumers, who are defined as > non-stakeholders. > > Regards, > proclus > http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ > > > Thanks, > > Tom > > > > Ruben I Safir wrote: > > - - -snip - - - > >> > >> But I'm definetely telling everyone that NY Fair Use is not going to be taking > >> leads or an action from EFF just because they ran their 43rd alert this week. > >> > >> > >> Let EFF do what it wants to do. But we have our own leadership and CLEAR > >> vision of what we want to do. > >> > >> Thanks > >> > >> Ruben > >> > >> On 2002.08.09 02:09 proclus@gnu-darwin.org wrote: > >> > >>>Ruben's point is important. A single message to each member group > >>>would be sufficient (then maybe nyfairuse will join ;-), and they can > >>>discuss a single message among themselves in a manner that is > >>>appropriate for their own group. > >>> > >>>There should be an opt-in mechanism for people who wish to become more > >>>involved in any particular action. I liked the way that Stakeholders > >>>7/17 "sucked you in", when you replied to the alert. That gets you > >>>right into it, like free-skyarov was in the first days. > >>> > >>>Regards, > >>>proclus > >>>http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ > >>> > >>> > >>>On 9 Aug, Ruben I Safir wrote: > >>> > >>>>defenitly count out NY Fair Use. The noise level is alreay too high. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>I think Jay has a point about the SPAM. On the other hand, I don't think > >>>>>it serves much purpose if a singular message is posted on each list, and > >>>>>that's the end of it. I think the need to post and cross-post, and make > >>>>>sure people recognize something is happening is necessary. > >>>>>Thanks, > >>>>>Tom Poe > >>>>>Open Studios > >>>>>Reno, NV > >>>>> > >>>>>proclus@gnu-darwin.org wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>>How about "Freedom Axis"? I like the general idea to encompass groups > >>>>>>who value free software, open standards, fair use, cryptography, > >>>>>> privacy, etc. Speaking for myself, I already forward important alerts > >>>>>>to the lists that I administrate, about 300 subscribers, plus > >>>>>>free-skyarov sometimes. I don't consider it spam, because the > >>>>>>subscribers have an expressed interest. I'm sure that others are doing > >>>>>>likewise. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>How is this proposal different from what we are doing already? EFF > >>>>>>action alerts, Politech, etc? How to do we avoid burnout and too much > >>>>>>email? > >>>>>> > >>>>>>Regards, > >>>>>>proclus > >>>>>>http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ > >>>>>> > >>>>>>On 9 Aug, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, tompoe@renonevada.net wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>Hi: Let's see what you folks think about the following: > >>>>>>>>A web site that lists Users'Groups [all kinds, flavors, etc.] > >>>>>>>>A web site that lists web sites [supporters] > >>>>>>>>A web site that lists individuals [supporters] > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>The name of the web site: The Linux Army > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>This is close to something I have been considering. It is an important > >>>>>>>thing to do. We should have been at today's FCC meeting. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>More than a simple alert system is needed. Organization, planning, > >>>>>>>discipline, and experience will help us. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>Tom, I love your stuff and this idea. but I have one objection: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>The name is wrong. Not "Linux", and not even "GNU/Linux". Perhaps not > >>>>>>>even "Free Software". Right now I do not have a name I like, but I often > >>>>>>>use the phrase "owners and makers". "stakeholders" is also a good word. > >>>>>>>The Englobulators plots', if successful, will trammel us as "consumers", but > >>>>>>>they will do worse to us as owners and makers: they will end our rights to > >>>>>>>own and make and distribute our own stuff. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>Also we need not allow any SPAM whatsoever. We can quickly distribute > >>>>>>>information to many centers without allowing SPAM. We may not even need so > >>>>>>>much bandwidth that many distribution points are required. Perhaps a > >>>>>>>mailing list with an archive which we allow to be mirrored, subject, of > >>>>>>>course, to our strict license, and partly secured by standard cryptographic > >>>>>>>means ;) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>oo--JS. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>On this page, those who agree to the following are listed: > >>>>>>>>1] Agree to open their sites to SPAM and cross-posting messages for TAKE > >>>>>>>>ACTION events > >>>>>>>>2] All messages with EFF will be posted for list members of Users' > >>>>>>>>Groups, web sites and individuals [upon moderator approval] > >>>>>>>>3] All members of The Linux Army will set up a folder on their mail > >>>>>>>>clients to receive all messages with EFF in the Subject Line, so as not > >>>>>>>>to have an undue amount of cross-posting and SPAM messages in their Inboxes. > >>>>>>>>4] Now, whenever there are ACTIONS TO TAKE, the hundreds of thousands of > >>>>>>>>members of The Linux Army are alerted, and can, in most cases, with just > >>>>>>>>three clicks, "Do Their Duty". > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>Slashdot is good for what it does, and The Linux Army, ugly as the SPAM > >>>>>>>>aspect is, needs to be alerted to TAKE ACTION when needed. The only way > >>>>>>>>to do that is to agree to a SPAM arrangement. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>There's a sample page at: > >>>>>>>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/linuxarmy.html > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>If the idea is viable, then the next step is to decide who best to host > >>>>>>>>the site? > >>>>>>>>Thanks, > >>>>>>>>Tom Poe > >>>>>>>>Open Studios > >>>>>>>>Reno, NV > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>Seth Johnson wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>Seth Finkelstein wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Well, what works? I must admit I've not had a > >>>>>>>>>>great deal of success myself. Maybe there's nothing we > >>>>>>>>>>can do. I don't claim to be an expert at such > >>>>>>>>>>convincing. I'm only sharing empirical problems I've > >>>>>>>>>>encountered from my own experiences in trying to > >>>>>>>>>>convince skeptical people. If the world is divided into > >>>>>>>>>>the unconvertable, and the choir singing > >>>>>>>>>>they're-coming-to-take-us-away, that's disheartening. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>Actually, organizing is best done by pitching to the choir. > >>>>>>>>>The key is to show those who agree with you something in > >>>>>>>>>motion, and thereby find the ones who are looking for > >>>>>>>>>something real to be a part of. That's how you recruit the > >>>>>>>>>leaders and build a movement. Organizers "call to emulate." > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>It isn't about spin or consciousness-raising, which the > >>>>>>>>>"preaching to the choir" line implies, whenever you hear it > >>>>>>>>>brought against you. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>Seth Johnson > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>-- > >>>>>>>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/ > >>>>>>>>http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ > >>>>>>>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ > >>>>>>>>-- > >>>>>>>>Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org > >>>>>>>>and register for the TAKE ACTION page. > >>>>>>>>If you can donate $5, that'll help, too > >>>>>>>>-- > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>free-sklyarov mailing list > >>>>>>>>free-sklyarov@zork.net > >>>>>>>>http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>free-sklyarov mailing list > >>>>>>>free-sklyarov@zork.net > >>>>>>>http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>-- > >>>>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/ > >>>>>http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ > >>>>>http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ > >>>>>-- > >>>>>Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org > >>>>>and register for the TAKE ACTION page. > >>>>>If you can donate $5, that'll help, too > >>>>>-- > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>>free-sklyarov mailing list > >>>>>free-sklyarov@zork.net > >>>>>http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>-- > >>>Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ > >>>-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > >>>Version: 3.1 > >>>GMU/S d+@ s: a+ C++++ UBOULI++++$ P+ L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O > >>>M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-(--)@ b !DI D- G e++++ > >>>h--- r+++ y++++ > >>>------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > -- > Visit proclus realm! http://proclus.tripod.com/ > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > Version: 3.1 > GMU/S d+@ s: a+ C++++ UBULI++++$ P+ L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O > M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-(--)@ b !DI D- G e++++ > h--- r+++ y++++ > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ > > > -- __________________________ Brooklyn Linux Solutions __________________________ http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.nylxs.com/radio - Free Software Radio Show and Archives http://www.brooklynonline.com - For the love of Brooklyn http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www.nyfairuse.org - The foundation of Democracy http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/mp3/dr.mp3 - Imagine my surprise when I saw you... http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn.... 1-718-382-5752 From rms at computerbytesman.com Fri Aug 9 15:24:40 2002 From: rms at computerbytesman.com (Richard M. Smith) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:56 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Forget the war on terrorism, let's go after kids on Kazaa In-Reply-To: <20020809220747.GB10046@www2.mrbrklyn.com> Message-ID: <00ba01c23ff3$8db2bfe0$6501a8c0@ne2.client2.attbi.com> Ashcroft Asked to Target Online Song Swappers http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=581&e=2&cid=581&u=/nm/2 0020809/tc_nm/tech_copyright_dc_4 WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. lawmakers have asked Attorney General John Ashcroft to go after Internet users who download unauthorized songs and other copyrighted material, raising the possibility of jail time for digital-music fans. In a July 25 letter released late Thursday, some 19 lawmakers from both sides of the aisle asked Ashcroft to prosecute "peer-to-peer" networks like Kazaa and Morpheus and the users who swap digital songs, video clips and other files without permission from artists or their record labels. The Justice Department should also devote more resources to policing online copyrights, the lawmakers said in their letter. ... From tompoe at renonevada.net Fri Aug 9 19:52:24 2002 From: tompoe at renonevada.net (tompoe@renonevada.net) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:56 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Forget the war on terrorism, let's go after kids on Kazaa References: <00ba01c23ff3$8db2bfe0$6501a8c0@ne2.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: <3D547FE8.1070905@renonevada.net> Hi: Where's the letter? Thanks, Tom Poe Open Studios Reno, NV Richard M. Smith wrote: > Ashcroft Asked to Target Online Song Swappers > http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=581&e=2&cid=581&u=/nm/2 > 0020809/tc_nm/tech_copyright_dc_4 > > WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. lawmakers have asked Attorney General John > Ashcroft to go after Internet users who download unauthorized songs and > other copyrighted material, raising the possibility of jail time for > digital-music fans. > > In a July 25 letter released late Thursday, some 19 lawmakers from both > sides of the aisle asked Ashcroft to prosecute "peer-to-peer" networks > like Kazaa and Morpheus and the users who swap digital songs, video > clips and other files without permission from artists or their record > labels. > > The Justice Department should also devote more resources to policing > online copyrights, the lawmakers said in their letter. > > ... > > > > _______________________________________________ > free-sklyarov mailing list > free-sklyarov@zork.net > http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > -- http://www.studioforrecording.org/ http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ -- Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org and register for the TAKE ACTION page. If you can donate $5, that'll help, too -- From rms at computerbytesman.com Sat Aug 10 03:22:58 2002 From: rms at computerbytesman.com (Richard M. Smith) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:56 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Forget the war on terrorism, let's go after kids on Kazaa In-Reply-To: <3D547FE8.1070905@renonevada.net> Message-ID: <000b01c24057$e6e69a00$6501a8c0@ne2.client2.attbi.com> I looked some, but couldn't find it. If any one on the list does locate the URL for the congressional letter, please post it on the list. Here's the RIAA press release which supports the letter: http://www.riaa.org/PR_story.cfm?id=543 Richard -----Original Message----- From: tompoe@renonevada.net [mailto:tompoe@renonevada.net] Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 10:52 PM To: Richard M. Smith Cc: free-sklyarov@zork.net Subject: Re: [free-sklyarov] Forget the war on terrorism, let's go after kids on Kazaa Hi: Where's the letter? Thanks, Tom Poe Open Studios Reno, NV Richard M. Smith wrote: > Ashcroft Asked to Target Online Song Swappers > http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=581&e=2&cid=581&u=/nm/2 > 0020809/tc_nm/tech_copyright_dc_4 > > WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. lawmakers have asked Attorney General John > Ashcroft to go after Internet users who download unauthorized songs and > other copyrighted material, raising the possibility of jail time for > digital-music fans. > > In a July 25 letter released late Thursday, some 19 lawmakers from both > sides of the aisle asked Ashcroft to prosecute "peer-to-peer" networks > like Kazaa and Morpheus and the users who swap digital songs, video > clips and other files without permission from artists or their record > labels. > > The Justice Department should also devote more resources to policing > online copyrights, the lawmakers said in their letter. > > ... > > > > _______________________________________________ > free-sklyarov mailing list > free-sklyarov@zork.net > http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > -- http://www.studioforrecording.org/ http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ -- Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org and register for the TAKE ACTION page. If you can donate $5, that'll help, too -- From minter at lunenburg.org Sat Aug 10 07:55:07 2002 From: minter at lunenburg.org (H. Wade Minter) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:56 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Hometown newspaper takes Howard Coble to task... Message-ID: <294E7F16-AC71-11D6-ABF6-003065819B10@lunenburg.org> ...and suggests a internet-wide email campaign to get Coble to change his mind. http://www.news-record.com/news/columnists/staff/cone04.htm The usual caveats apply - be polite and direct when you email them, stating your opposition and why you feel this is a bad bill in a reasonable manner. EXCERPT: Already Coble's office has received a trickle of complaints from constituents who feel the bill gives too much power to the entertainment industry. "We have heard from people who say that this gives companies access to their PCs. People resent that and don't want it," says McDonald. What if that trickle turned into a flood, not just from the North Carolina Piedmont but from all around the country? It would be a watershed moment in the Internet's rise as a force in American democracy. (And the Web is all that democracy has going for it just now in terms of putting the heat under Coble and Berman, who are both running unopposed by major-party candidates this year.) Doing this campaign right will be a test for the Internet community, which tends to flame first and ask questions later. Anyone who sends e-mail to Coble (howard.coble@mail.house.gov), Berman (howard.berman@mail.house.gov) or other members of the committee should be respectful and aim to educate, not harangue. Just explain why the powers granted under this bill are creepy and invasive and unfair to the average person, and request that Congress seek a better way to fix the problem of copyright protection. There is plenty of time for action. Congress is in recess, and the bill won't be considered until September. Meanwhile, Howard Coble has shown himself to be willing to listen and learn, and even to revise his opinion in public. The corporate hacking bill needs to be changed, and you have the power to help change it. From rms at computerbytesman.com Sat Aug 10 15:58:20 2002 From: rms at computerbytesman.com (Richard M. Smith) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:56 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] FW: Text of letter to Ashcroft wanting jail for P2P pirates Message-ID: <001d01c240c1$6c6ace80$6501a8c0@ne2.client2.attbi.com> FYI: -----Original Message----- From: owner-politech@politechbot.com [mailto:owner-politech@politechbot.com] On Behalf Of Declan McCullagh Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 6:40 PM To: politech@politechbot.com Subject: FC: Text of letter to Ashcroft wanting jail for P2P pirates I've placed the congressional letter to Attorney General Ashcroft here: http://www.politechbot.com/docs/congress.p2p.letter.081002.pdf Previous Politech message: "U.S. politicians want P2P pirates placed in federal prison" http://www.politechbot.com/p-03871.html also see: "Duncan Frissell on why Napster users are federal felons" http://www.politechbot.com/p-02305.html -Declan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - Like Politech? Make a donation here: http://www.politechbot.com/donate/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - From proclus at gnu-darwin.org Sat Aug 10 16:26:57 2002 From: proclus at gnu-darwin.org (proclus@gnu-darwin.org) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:57 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] FW: Text of letter to Ashcroft wanting jail for P2P pirates In-Reply-To: <001d01c240c1$6c6ace80$6501a8c0@ne2.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: <20020810232705.C6D2A101CE@proclus.dyndns.org> Apparently Hollywood has more clout with Congress than "140 million" people. Money talks, Biden listens. Regards, proclus http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ On 10 Aug, Richard M. Smith wrote: > FYI: > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-politech@politechbot.com > [mailto:owner-politech@politechbot.com] On Behalf Of Declan McCullagh > Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 6:40 PM > To: politech@politechbot.com > Subject: FC: Text of letter to Ashcroft wanting jail for P2P pirates > > > I've placed the congressional letter to Attorney General Ashcroft here: > http://www.politechbot.com/docs/congress.p2p.letter.081002.pdf > > Previous Politech message: > > "U.S. politicians want P2P pirates placed in federal prison" > http://www.politechbot.com/p-03871.html > > also see: > > "Duncan Frissell on why Napster users are federal felons" > http://www.politechbot.com/p-02305.html > > -Declan > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list > You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. > To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html > This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ > Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > Like Politech? Make a donation here: http://www.politechbot.com/donate/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > > > _______________________________________________ > free-sklyarov mailing list > free-sklyarov@zork.net > http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a+ C++++ UBOULI++++$ P+ L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-(--)@ b !DI D- G e++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://frotz.zork.net/pipermail/free-sklyarov/attachments/20020810/8756ac42/attachment.pgp From proclus at gnu-darwin.org Sat Aug 10 16:33:55 2002 From: proclus at gnu-darwin.org (proclus@gnu-darwin.org) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:57 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] FW: Text of letter to Ashcroft wanting jail for P2P pirates In-Reply-To: <20020810232705.C6D2A101CE@proclus.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20020810233403.03408101EF@proclus.dyndns.org> On 10 Aug, To: Richard M. Smith wrote: > > Apparently Hollywood has more clout with Congress than "140 million" > people. Money talks, Biden listens. Does anyone doubt that Ashcroft will give them their mickey mouse goon squad? Apparently voters are not important to Biden. Regards, proclus http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ > > Regards, > proclus > http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ > > On 10 Aug, Richard M. Smith wrote: >> FYI: >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-politech@politechbot.com >> [mailto:owner-politech@politechbot.com] On Behalf Of Declan McCullagh >> Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 6:40 PM >> To: politech@politechbot.com >> Subject: FC: Text of letter to Ashcroft wanting jail for P2P pirates >> >> >> I've placed the congressional letter to Attorney General Ashcroft here: >> http://www.politechbot.com/docs/congress.p2p.letter.081002.pdf >> >> Previous Politech message: >> >> "U.S. politicians want P2P pirates placed in federal prison" >> http://www.politechbot.com/p-03871.html >> >> also see: >> >> "Duncan Frissell on why Napster users are federal felons" >> http://www.politechbot.com/p-02305.html >> >> -Declan >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> - >> POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list >> You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. >> To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html >> This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ >> Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> - >> Like Politech? Make a donation here: http://www.politechbot.com/donate/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> - >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> free-sklyarov mailing list >> free-sklyarov@zork.net >> http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a+ C++++ UBOULI++++$ P+ L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-(--)@ b !DI D- G e++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://frotz.zork.net/pipermail/free-sklyarov/attachments/20020810/a3efcc63/attachment.pgp From ruben at mrbrklyn.com Sat Aug 10 18:15:03 2002 From: ruben at mrbrklyn.com (Ruben I Safir) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:57 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] FW: Text of letter to Ashcroft wanting jail for P2P pirates In-Reply-To: <20020810232705.C6D2A101CE@proclus.dyndns.org>; from proclus@gnu-darwin.org on Sat, Aug 10, 2002 at 19:26:57 -0400 References: <001d01c240c1$6c6ace80$6501a8c0@ne2.client2.attbi.com> <20020810232705.C6D2A101CE@proclus.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20020810211503.A10921@www2.mrbrklyn.com> Biden doesn't answer to 140 million people, just those in his home state, which I a real small one if I recall. Ruben On 2002.08.10 19:26 proclus@gnu-darwin.org wrote: > > Apparently Hollywood has more clout with Congress than "140 million" > people. Money talks, Biden listens. > > Regards, > proclus > http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ > > On 10 Aug, Richard M. Smith wrote: > > FYI: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-politech@politechbot.com > > [mailto:owner-politech@politechbot.com] On Behalf Of Declan McCullagh > > Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 6:40 PM > > To: politech@politechbot.com > > Subject: FC: Text of letter to Ashcroft wanting jail for P2P pirates > > > > > > I've placed the congressional letter to Attorney General Ashcroft here: > > http://www.politechbot.com/docs/congress.p2p.letter.081002.pdf > > > > Previous Politech message: > > > > "U.S. politicians want P2P pirates placed in federal prison" > > http://www.politechbot.com/p-03871.html > > > > also see: > > > > "Duncan Frissell on why Napster users are federal felons" > > http://www.politechbot.com/p-02305.html > > > > -Declan > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > - > > POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list > > You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. > > To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html > > This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ > > Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > - > > Like Politech? Make a donation here: http://www.politechbot.com/donate/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > - > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > free-sklyarov mailing list > > free-sklyarov@zork.net > > http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > > -- > Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > Version: 3.1 > GMU/S d+@ s: a+ C++++ UBOULI++++$ P+ L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O > M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-(--)@ b !DI D- G e++++ > h--- r+++ y++++ > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ > > > -- __________________________ Brooklyn Linux Solutions __________________________ http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.nylxs.com/radio - Free Software Radio Show and Archives http://www.brooklynonline.com - For the love of Brooklyn http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www.nyfairuse.org - The foundation of Democracy http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/mp3/dr.mp3 - Imagine my surprise when I saw you... http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn.... 1-718-382-5752 From jok707s at smsu.edu Mon Aug 12 13:30:46 2002 From: jok707s at smsu.edu (jok707s@smsu.edu) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:57 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Linux Army &c Message-ID: <3D582639@caliber> I still kind of like that title "Linux Army." In fact, I even assembled a verse of The Linux Army Fight Song: Onward, Linux soldiers, Marching as to war, With GNU-licensed software Carried on before. In the tradition of collaborative effort, other members of the corps are invited to contribute verses as the spirit moves them. Trust in Linux and keep your keyboards dry. :-) Joel From sacraver at EE.Princeton.EDU Mon Aug 12 17:10:39 2002 From: sacraver at EE.Princeton.EDU (Xcott Craver) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:57 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Linux Army &c In-Reply-To: <3D582639@caliber> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Aug 2002, jok707s@smsu.edu wrote: > I still kind of like that title "Linux Army." In fact, I even assembled a > verse of The Linux Army Fight Song: We could call ourselves "Commoners." Smiley. See, it's not any specific software we're talking about, or even software in general: we're talking about the entire commons made of phone lines, networks, spectrum, software platforms, open standards, etc, a giant open space now connecting us which we want to make and keep a public place. -X From tompoe at renonevada.net Mon Aug 12 20:01:57 2002 From: tompoe at renonevada.net (tompoe@renonevada.net) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:57 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Linux Army &c References: Message-ID: <3D5876A5.60106@renonevada.net> Hi: You have my vote on that one. I'll change the example page I've started. http://www.studioforrecording.org/linuxarmy.html We need the name. Then, we need to figure out how to get the right group to host the list of participants in The Commoners' Army. Thanks, Tom Poe Open Studios Reno, NV Xcott Craver wrote: > On Mon, 12 Aug 2002, jok707s@smsu.edu wrote: > > >>I still kind of like that title "Linux Army." In fact, I even assembled a >>verse of The Linux Army Fight Song: > > > We could call ourselves "Commoners." Smiley. > > See, it's not any specific software we're talking about, or even > software in general: we're talking about the entire commons > made of phone lines, networks, spectrum, software platforms, open > standards, etc, a giant open space now connecting us which we want > to make and keep a public place. > > -X > > > > _______________________________________________ > free-sklyarov mailing list > free-sklyarov@zork.net > http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > -- http://www.studioforrecording.org/ http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/ http://www.studioforrecording.org/mt/Pubdomain_Bread/ -- Please go to EFF.org page at http://www.eff.org and register for the TAKE ACTION page. If you can donate $5, that'll help, too -- From sethf at sethf.com Tue Aug 13 02:15:04 2002 From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:57 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Linux Army &c In-Reply-To: ; from sacraver@EE.Princeton.EDU on Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 08:10:39PM -0400 References: <3D582639@caliber> Message-ID: <20020813051504.A10081@sethf.com> On Mon, 12 Aug 2002, jok707s@smsu.edu wrote: > I still kind of like that title "Linux Army." In fact, I even > assembled a verse of The Linux Army Fight Song: I can't resist - this reminds me of Tom Lehrer's "Folk Song Army" song http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/SongUnid/B7F5139773ED152048256A7D0025966C "So join in the Folk Song Army, Guitars are the weapons we bring To the fight against poverty, war, and injustice. Ready! Aim! Sing!" Still, some rounds of the D-M-C-A song outside the upcoming Elcomsoft trial wouldn't be bad. -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer sethf@sethf.com http://sethf.com Anticensorware Investigations - http://sethf.com/anticensorware/ Seth Finkelstein's Infothought list - http://sethf.com/infothought/ http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/19/technology/circuits/19HACK.html From seth.johnson at RealMeasures.dyndns.org Thu Aug 15 16:21:29 2002 From: seth.johnson at RealMeasures.dyndns.org (Seth Johnson) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:57 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Internet Society on Digital Restrictions Management Message-ID: <3D5C3779.2C40DFDD@RealMeasures.dyndns.org> (Forwarded from CYBERIA list) -------- Original Message -------- Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 18:02:06 -0400 From: "R. A. Hettinga" To: CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM --- begin forwarded text Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 22:18:29 +0100 From: Somebody To: "R. A. Hettinga" Subject: Statement of the Internet Society on Digital Rights Management FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE August 15, 2002 Contact: Julie Williams 703-326-9880, x111; 703-402-6715 cell Statement of the Internet Society on Digital Rights Management Washington, D.C. - The Internet Society strongly opposes attempts to impose governmental technology mandates that are designed to protect only the economic interests of certain owners of intellectual property over the economic interests of much larger portions of society. The current debate in many countries of the world regarding digital rights management (DRM) has illustrated the inevitable conclusion of technology mandates in law: a world where all digital media technology is either forbidden or compulsory. The effect of these mandates is to grant veto power over new technologies to special interest groups who have continually opposed innovation. There are many policy reasons that can be advanced to oppose government intervention in technology. Society at large has a powerful economic interest in promoting research resulting in the creation of new products and services as well as new jobs. Many of the legislative proposals currently under consideration would shackle technology and the research needed to support it, solely for the benefit of one small group. From the standpoint of sound public policy, intellectual property rights must be respected but must also be kept in balance with other rights and interests. In particular, copyright law is a kind of "bargain" between rights owners and consumers. Copyright, except in rare instances, is not perpetual, and there are a wide range of fair use exceptions to copyright that limit its restraints. Without these limits, copyright would soon become an oppressive burden on creativity and freedom of expression. The Internet Society acknowledges these policy considerations, but also believes that there are other even more persuasive arguments, based on sound engineering and technological principles, that show the folly of government mandated technology. Technology mandates are inherently anti-innovative. The entire concept of a mandate is that it freezes a particular technology at a point in time, and inhibits research and development on new and better technology. Technological standards are desirable and even necessary for widespread implementation of new technology, but all standards sooner or later must give way to new standards. This process should not be impeded by legislation that effectively prohibits research and development. A classic illustration of the dangers of DRM legislation may be found in legislation enacted by many countries as part of their treaty obligations under the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO) copyright treaties. The so-called Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), passed by the United States Congress in 1998, is an example. Under the WIPO treaties, the United States, like the other countries bound by the treaties, had an obligation to "provide 'legal protection and effective legal remedies' against circumventing technological measures, e.g., encryption and password protection, that are used by copyright owners to protect their works from piracy . . ." [See S. Rep. No. 105-190, at 8, 10-11 (1998)]. The DMCA, in responding to this obligation, illustrates the "law of unintended consequences." While purporting to help copyright owners, it seriously threatens research in the field of encryption for security. The DMCA prohibits "circumvention" of existing technological measures (such as encryption) that control access to a work and encryption; it prohibits "trafficking" in technology designed to circumvent access control; and it prohibits "trafficking" in technology designed to circumvent copying. These prohibitions are subject to certain exceptions; the DMCA acknowledges rights of fair use, so that, in certain limited circumstances, circumvention of copying protection for purposes of fair use of an encrypted work does not violate the act. Another important exception is the separate provision of the DMCA that allows circumvention of access controls for the purpose of encryption research to identify flaws and vulnerabilities of encryption technology. This provision is narrowly drawn with explicit conditions relating to good faith in performing research. Most significantly, the exception is for access only; it does not permit what the act refers to as trafficking in such research. The danger to research presented by statutes like the DMCA is best illustrated by a real world example of a researcher in the field of encryption. Just because cryptography can be or is being used for purposes other than copyright protection, does not mean it is not also used for copyright protection and therefore subject to the provision of the DMCA. Although a researcher may be looking at a certain type of cryptographic technology that is used to protect packets containing information in the public domain, that same technology might also be used to protect other packets that contain copyrighted data, unknown to the researcher. Likewise, a researcher might attempt to break the protection on an item without realizing that the protected item is a copyrighted work, which may not be discovered, if at all, until it is too late. But the issue isn't whether the researcher has cracked the protection - the issue is what the researcher may do with the resulting information. A central question for encryption researchers is whether publishing the results of their research amounts to disseminating something whose primary purpose is to circumvent copyright protection. Under the DMCA, the act of circumventing access controls for good faith research, standing alone, is, generally speaking, legitimate. This does not present great problems to researchers. However, when the researcher then wishes to publish the results of the research, the DMCA provides a test of the intent of the original circumvention that depends on whether the subsequent publication is made to "advance the state of knowledge" of encryption research, or whether it is made "in a manner that facilitates infringement." In other words, if the researcher acts in good faith to circumvent access control and publishes with the intent of reaching other researchers, but the information ends up being "disseminated in a manner that facilitates infringement," then the original circumvention of the access controls may have been illegal. Since there are both civil and criminal remedies available to copyright owners, the researcher faces serious dilemmas in deciding whether, how and when to publish. There are already court decisions in the United States and elsewhere involving both civil and criminal aspects of the publication of encryption research. Many prominent figures in the field have already spoken out against the chilling effect of legislative interference with research in technology. The Internet Society calls on the legislatures of the world to limit the damage caused by shortsighted legislative efforts, intended to carry out the seemingly high-minded purposes of the copyright treaties, that instead threaten the advancement of science and technology. About ISOC The Internet Society is a not-for-profit membership organization founded in 1991 to provide leadership in the management of Internet related standards, educational, and policy development issues. It has offices in Washington, DC and Geneva, Switzerland. Through its current initiatives in support of education and training, Internet standards and protocol, and public policy, ISOC has played a critical role in ensuring that the Internet has developed in a stable and open manner. It is the organizational home of the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF), the Internet Architecture Board (IAB), the Internet Engineering Steering Group (IESG) and other Internet-related bodies. For over 10 years ISOC has run international network training programs for developing countries which have played a vital role in setting up the Internet connections and networks in virtually every country that has connected to the Internet during this time, while at the same time working to protect the Internet's stability. ISOC is taking the next step in this evolution with the recent announcement of its intent to bid for the .ORG registry based on the belief that a thriving non-commercial presence is a key element in developing a strong social and technical infrastructure in all nations. For additional information see http://www.ISOC.org. --- end forwarded text ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' ********************************************************************** For Listserv Instructions, see http://www.lawlists.net/cyberia Off-Topic threads: http://www.lawlists.net/mailman/listinfo/cyberia-ot Need more help? Send mail to: Cyberia-L-Request@listserv.aol.com ********************************************************************** From ruben at mrbrklyn.com Mon Aug 19 23:12:41 2002 From: ruben at mrbrklyn.com (Ruben I Safir) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:57 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Reply to this Slashdot Thread Message-ID: <20020820021241.M7598@www2.mrbrklyn.com> http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=38324&threshold=0&commentsort=0&tid=158&mode=thread&cid=4102285 -- __________________________ Brooklyn Linux Solutions __________________________ http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting http://www.nylxs.com/radio - Free Software Radio Show and Archives http://www.brooklynonline.com - For the love of Brooklyn http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www.nyfairuse.org - The foundation of Democracy http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/mp3/dr.mp3 - Imagine my surprise when I saw you... http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn.... 1-718-382-5752 From seth.johnson at RealMeasures.dyndns.org Thu Aug 22 10:14:12 2002 From: seth.johnson at RealMeasures.dyndns.org (Seth Johnson) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:57 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Palladium FAQ Message-ID: <3D651BE4.77B3C380@RealMeasures.dyndns.org> Message from Cryptography list below; FAQ text pasted below that. Note in particular the following passage: Q: What's the difference between "Palladium" and DRM? A: Digital rights management (DRM) generally refers to software and/or hardware systems that enforce policies that mediate access to digital content or services on machines in the control of entities other than the content or service provider. Once the user of a machine accepts a set of policies, DRM systems are designed to enforce those policies even if the machine owner (or malicious software running on the user's machine) subsequently tries to subvert them. Microsoft says Palladium is not DRM, because their game is *universal content control.* They intend to provide to one and all, the technological means to enforce the unprecedented notion that information producers have a "moral right" to control *how the public makes use of information.* Microsoft says Palladium is not DRM because Microsoft defines DRM as mediating access on "machines in the control of *entities other than* the content or service provider" -- whereas Palladium is designed to mediate access on machines *in the control of the content or service provider* -- *not* the actual owner of the logic device itself. They are attempting to make it sound like they are dispelling abusive third parties, when in fact they are attacking free society in the name of the notion of "moral rights." Seth Johnson -------- Original Message -------- Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 23:45:29 -0700 From: AARG!Anonymous To: cypherpunks@lne.com, cryptography@wasabisystems.com, mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu Microsoft has apparently just made available a new FAQ on its controversial Palladium technology at > http://www.microsoft.com/PressPass/features/2002/aug02/0821PalladiumFAQ.asp. Samples: > Q: I've heard that "Palladium" will force people to run only > Microsoft-approved software. > > A: "Palladium" can't do that. "Palladium's" security chip (the SSC) > and other features are not involved in the boot process of the OS or in > the OS's decision to load an application that doesn't use a "Palladium" > feature and execute it. Because "Palladium" is not involved in the > boot process, it cannot block an OS, or drivers or any non-"Palladium" > PC application from running. Only the user decides what "Palladium" > applications get to run. Anyone can write an application to take advantage > of "Palladium" APIs without notifying Microsoft (or anyone else) or > getting its (or anyone else's) approval. > Q: Some people have claimed that "Palladium" will enable Microsoft or > other parties to detect and remotely delete unlicensed software from my > PC. Is this true? > > A: No. As stated above, the function of "Palladium" is to make digitally > signed statements about code identity and hide secrets from other > "Palladium" applications and regular Windows kernel- and user-mode > spaces. "Palladium" doesn't have any features that make it easier for > an application to detect or delete files. Hopefully Microsoft will continue to release information about Palladium. That should help to bring some of the more outrageous rumors under control. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo@wasabisystems.com ---- Microsoft "Palladium" Initiative Technical FAQ August 2002 Q: What is the "Palladium" initiative, anyway? A: The "Palladium" code name refers to both hardware and software changes. Specifically, it refers to a new set of features in the Microsoft? Windows? operating system that, when combined with new hardware and software, provide additional security services to PCs. There are four categories of these features: - Curtained memory. The ability to wall off and hide pages of main memory so that each "Palladium" application can be assured that it is not modified or observed by any other application or even the operating system - Attestation. The ability for a piece of code to digitally sign or otherwise attest to a piece of data and further assure the signature recipient that the data was constructed by an unforgeable, cryptographically identified software stack - Sealed storage. The ability to securely store information so that a "Palladium" application or module can mandate that the information be accessible only to itself or to a set of other trusted components that can be identified in a cryptographically secure manner - Secure input and output. A secure path from the keyboard and mouse to "Palladium" applications, and a secure path from "Palladium" applications to a region of the screen When running, "Palladium" provides a parallel execution environment to the "traditional" Windows kernel- and user-mode stacks; "Palladium" runs alongside the OS, not underneath it. The goal with "Palladium" is to help protect software from software; that is, to provide a set of features and services that a software application can use to defend against malicious software also running on the machine (viruses running in the main operating system, keyboard sniffers, frame grabbers, etc). "Palladium" is not designed to provide defenses against hardware-based attacks that originate from someone in control of the local machine. Q: How can I learn more about "Palladium" beyond what's in this FAQ? A: Microsoft Corp. will be publishing additional technical information about "Palladium" over the coming months. To be notified when this information is available, send e-mail to pdinfo@microsoft.com, with "subscribe" in the subject line. We've established this announce-only mailing list to keep you informed as new information becomes available. We'll send a short note to this list whenever new information has been posted to Microsoft.com. Q: What is the "SSC" component of "Palladium"? What is a "nexus" in "Palladium"? A: These two terms refer to components of the "Palladium" infrastructure: The Security Support Component (SSC) is a hardware module that can perform certain cryptographic operations and securely store one or more cryptographic keys that are used by "Palladium" to provide the sealed storage and attestation functions. At a minimum, the SSC provides RSA public-key operations (encryption, decryption, digital signature generation and verification), AES encryption and decryption, and SHA-1 hash computation. The SSC also contains at least one RSA private key and AES symmetric key that are private to the SSC and never exported from the chip. A nexus, what we used to refer to as a "nub" or "trusted operating root," is essentially the kernel of the "Palladium"-isolated software stack. "Palladium" services are initialized by booting the "Palladium" hardware with a mini operating system kernel, the nexus. The nexus provides a limited set of APIs and services for "Palladium" applications, including sealed storage and attestation functions. Think of "Palladium" applications and a "Palladium" nexus as residing in the user mode and kernel mode spaces of the parallel "Palladium" execution environment. Anyone can write a nexus for "Palladium," but the user always has the ultimate authority over what nexuses are allowed to run on top of the "Palladium" hardware. Q: What is the "Palladium" privacy model? A: The users are always in control over whether "Palladium" is enabled on their PC and what nexuses have access to specific "Palladium" functions. "Palladium" provides a fine-grained access control model that allows users to specify (by hash) whether an individual nexus has the right to invoke a specific security operation. In addition, SSC functions that reveal potentially machine-identifying information, such as the RSA public key, may only be performed once per SSC reset (and the SSC cannot be reset from software; you have to power-cycle the PC). Q: What's the difference between "Palladium" and DRM? A: Digital rights management (DRM) generally refers to software and/or hardware systems that enforce policies that mediate access to digital content or services on machines in the control of entities other than the content or service provider. Once the user of a machine accepts a set of policies, DRM systems are designed to enforce those policies even if the machine owner (or malicious software running on the user's machine) subsequently tries to subvert them. "Palladium" itself is not a DRM system. DRM applications can, however, be built on top of "Palladium." What "Palladium" offers is a way to isolate applications (to avoid snooping and modification by other software) and store secrets for them while ensuring that only software trusted by the person granting access to the content or service has access to the enabling secrets. A DRM system can use this environment to help ensure that content is obtained and used only in accordance with mutually understood set of rules. While "Palladium" enables DRM-style policy enforcement, it also can ensure that user policies are rigorously enforced on user machines. In addition, "Palladium" software can provide a mechanism to ensure that user interactions in unsafe environments (such as the Internet) can be safeguarded by software that the user trusts to protect his or her interests and wishes. The powerful security primitives of "Palladium" offer benefits for DRM providers, but as important, they provide benefits for individual users and other service providers. "Palladium" can ensure that a virus or other malevolent software (even embedded in the OS) cannot observe or record the encrypted content, whether the content contains a user's personal data, a company's business records or other forms of digital content. Q: Isn't DRM just for the benefit of big studios and major labels that want to control access to content, restrict its usefulness and get bigger fees? Won't "Palladium" give them unreasonable control over users? A: Unfortunately, people tend to view DRM systems as being limited to functioning as copy-protection systems for commercial, mass market movies or music. While this is a valuable application that facilitates the digital distribution of content, there are much broader applications, particularly in the enterprise. First, it is important to note that the technical mechanisms underlying DRM as employed by the motion picture industry can also be deployed to enforce restrictions on any private information used on a machine that is outside the control of the "owner" of that information (e.g., personally identifiable information such as medical records, corporate information, financial records and so on). In other words, DRM can provide a mechanism by which anyone can impose access control over remote networks and/or enforcement of user policy over sensitive information. Second, "Palladium"-enabled DRM systems can overcome the overly restrictive and sometimes consumer-unfriendly mechanisms that are creeping into closed, captive devices (such as some consumer electronic devices and cell phones), by providing a broad, interoperable and open platform for content. Unlike closed, captive platforms, "Palladium" allows any provider or even individual to build a trustworthy interoperable mechanism that is not in the exclusive control of a single entity. Third, unlike some antipiracy proposals endorsed by some content owners, no "Palladium" application can censor, monitor or disable another "Palladium" application - or in fact any software running on a user's machine - without the user's permission. This central principle of "Palladium," that machine owners, whether they are individual consumers or organizations, are in complete control of their machines and the programs they run, is in stark contrast with some current proposals that would mandate that all machines include monitoring systems that could arbitrarily disable content or programs. "Palladium" has no mechanism for filtering content, nor does it provide a mechanism for proactively searching the Internet for "illegal" content. "Palladium" enables scalable, granular policy statement and enforcement mechanisms that extend customary file- or resource-protection services, while making these mechanisms interoperable over disparate disconnected systems. "Palladium" enables policy enforcement that can benefit many parties, but enforcement remains in the control of users. Whether or not they use it in conjunction with DRM systems, individuals can use such systems to maintain the confidentiality or controlled sharing of their documents or even online collaboration with their friends, co-workers or colleagues, or to control sensitive operations performed on their machines. Q: Is "Palladium" Microsoft's implementation of the Trusted Computing Platform Alliance (TCPA) specification? A: No, "Palladium" is not an implementation of TCPA spec. The two projects do share some features, such as attestation and sealed storage, but they have fundamentally different architectures. (To learn more about the TCPA's approach, you can download a copy of version 1.1 of its spec from its Web site.) Q: OK, so how does "Palladium" differ from the TCPA spec? A: The key difference between the two models is the relationship between the security co-processor - the Trusted Platform Module (TPM) in TCPA and the SSC in "Palladium" -and the rest of the PC. In the TCPA model, the TPM is a mandatory part of the boot sequence on a TCPA-certified platform. A TCPA TPM is able to measure (make signed statements about) the entire set of software that is running on a PC. In contrast, "Palladium" is designed to sit side by side with the PC's operating system and does not need to be involved with the boot process of the machine. The use of security features provided by "Palladium," including all functions involving the SSC, is always optional and under the user's control. Q: So I won't be able to play any MP3s on my PC any more? A: You will. "Palladium" brings additional capabilities to the PC but does not interfere with the operation of any program that runs on current PCs. "Palladium" never imposes itself on processes that do not request its services; "Palladium" features must be requested by a program. So the MP3 player you have today will still work on a "Palladium"-enabled PC tomorrow. Q: I've heard that "Palladium" will force people to run only Microsoft-approved software. A: "Palladium" can't do that. "Palladium's" security chip (the SSC) and other features are not involved in the boot process of the OS or in the OS's decision to load an application that doesn't use a "Palladium" feature and execute it. Because "Palladium" is not involved in the boot process, it cannot block an OS, or drivers or any non-"Palladium" PC application from running. Only the user decides what "Palladium" applications get to run. Anyone can write an application to take advantage of "Palladium" APIs without notifying Microsoft (or anyone else) or getting its (or anyone else's) approval. Playing devil's advocate, one might then ask, "But you have to be running a Microsoft operating system, right?" Remember, we have defined the "Palladium" initiative as a "new set of features in a forthcoming version of Windows that, when combined with new hardware and software, enable . . ." What we refer to as "Palladium" incorporates a Microsoft operating system. For further discussion of other OSs and "Palladium," see the last two questions of this FAQ. It will be possible, of course, to write applications that require access to one or more "Palladium" services in order to run. Such applications could implement access policies, enforced by a "Palladium" application, that would allow the application to run only if it has received some type of cryptographically signed license or certificate. But "Palladium" isolates applications from each other, so it is not possible for one "Palladium" application to prevent another from running. Q: Some people have claimed that "Palladium" will enable Microsoft or other parties to detect and remotely delete unlicensed software from my PC. Is this true? A: No. As stated above, the function of "Palladium" is to make digitally signed statements about code identity and hide secrets from other "Palladium" applications and regular Windows kernel- and user-mode spaces. "Palladium" doesn't have any features that make it easier for an application to detect or delete files. Q: Does "Palladium" spell the end of the smart card industry? A: We believe smart cards and "Palladium" are complementary technologies because each focuses on a different type of authentication problem. Smart cards (and other cryptographic tokens) typically are used to authenticate users: You can be sure the user is present because you have proof that the smart card is present (the card's cryptographic response to a one-time challenge) and, theoretically, only the user knows the PIN to enable the card. "Palladium" is concerned with authenticating the machine and/or a stack of software running on the machine: "Palladium" by itself doesn't provide the presence guarantees that a cryptographic token does. (Note that it would be possible to build a digital signature application that ran on top of "Palladium" and enforced the same user-present guarantees as a cryptographic token.) In the end, "Palladium" is very likely to increase the benefits that smart cards offer and increase demand for them. Q: Won't the FBI, CIA, NSA, etc. want a back door to "Palladium"? A: Microsoft would refuse to voluntarily place a back door in any of its products and would fiercely resist any government attempt to require back doors in products. From a security perspective, such back doors are an unacceptable security risk because they would permit unscrupulous individuals to compromise the confidentiality, integrity and availability of our customers' data and systems. From a market perspective, such products would not be marketable, either domestically or internationally. Equally important, deliberately inserting such vulnerabilities would undermine Microsoft's reputation in the marketplace as a trusted vendor of products. For these reasons and others, we would, as we did during the encryption debate, oppose any such government efforts. Q: Will "Palladium" really stop spam/prevent viruses for me? A: Unfortunately, no. Despite the hype in the media, "Palladium" will not stop spam or prevent viruses all by itself. But by using "Palladium" as a foundation, there are a number of trust and infrastructure models we can build that will help combat spam and viruses in new and effective ways. Let's look at spam first. There's been plenty of research on techniques to automatically reject spam e-mail or restrict the ability of spammers to generate it in the first place. These techniques include the following: - Simply rejecting mail that isn't authenticated or digitally signed with a "validated" identity (which would block all anonymous e-mail, including desired anonymous e-mail) - Forcing spammers to perform some nontrivial computation for each message they wish to send - Maintaining per-user whitelists and blacklists of senders Scoring every inbound e-mail message using heuristics that look for common characteristics of spam messages "Palladium" systems could certainly be used to improve signing-required or computation-required regimes, compared with what's possible today on conventional hardware. (The latter is probably more interesting because "Palladium" provides facilities that would allow a sender to prove to a recipient that the sender performed a particular computation within the "Palladium" environment.) Clearly, the possibilities for antispam measures on "Palladium" PCs is a research area deserving of further study. With respect to viruses, the contribution from "Palladium" is a little more straightforward. Since "Palladium" does not interfere with the operation of any program running in the regular Windows environment, everything, including the native OS and viruses, runs there as it does today. So we're still going to need antivirus monitoring and detection software in Windows as well. However, "Palladium" does provide antivirus software with a secure execution environment that cannot be corrupted by infected code, so an antivirus program built on top of a "Palladium" application could guarantee that it hasn't been corrupted. This grounding of the antivirus software allows it to bootstrap itself into a guaranteed execution state, something it can't do today. Q: What's the difference between "Palladium" and per-processor serial numbers? A: A per-processor serial number (or ID) is a piece of unique state that can be read by any application with access to the processor. The content of the ID is revealed to anyone requesting it, and there is no way to blind or use an indirect identity with a per-processor ID. More important, users can be uncertain about whether the per-processor ID is accessible only to the software they want it to be accessible to. A key design principle of "Palladium" is that no processor or user identification is enabled without the user's permission. In addition, "Palladium" will allow users fine-grain control of any such use or disclosure. A corollary is that users may choose to run "Palladium" software that blinds or renders anonymous any identity in many circumstances (not all - you want your bank to be sure who you are). To understand the difference between "Palladium" and a per-processor serial number we first have to look at what unique, per-machine state exists under "Palladium." One of the hardware components of "Palladium" is the Security Support Component, which is a smart-card-like core with a small amount of persistent, on-chip state. Each SSC includes a unique RSA public/private key pair and a unique AES symmetric key. The AES symmetric key and RSA private key never leave the chip; they are used by the SSC to seal data so that only the SSC can retrieve it and make signed attestations, respectively. The SSC also will include a digital certificate for the RSA public key, issued by the manufacturer, stating that the private key corresponding to the certified public key is indeed the private key of a "Palladium" SSC. Because the RSA key pair that ships with each SSC is unique, it could be used to identify the motherboard/PC that contains the SSC. To protect against this sort of data aggregation, Microsoft envisions a model in which each nexus generates random RSA key pairs for itself and uses the SSC key only to prove that the random keys were generated by a specific nexus on a "Palladium" machine. That is, we envision there being a number of third-party "pseudo-identity providers" that will accept as input an RSA public key signed by a "Palladium" SSC key as well as the digital certificate for that SSC key provided by the manufacturer, and in turn issue a new certificate for the random key. The new certificate would attest that the key is associated with a "Palladium"-enabled device but would not include any per-machine details or references to the SSC key. These pseudo-identity providers would be trusted third parties (TTPs) that would have the technical means to maintain mappings between the per-machine key and any random keys submitted for certification, but it would be these random keys, certified by the TTP, that would normally be used when communicating with others. Note that, for some applications, the TTP could be the user himself: The user (or an organization that the user was part of) could self-certify keys. Organizations or persons who "trust" that user could rely on that intermediate key. Microsoft will not allow any applications to gain access to the SSC machine key without the user's consent, and we expect that key to be used only when generating new pseudonyms (random RSA keys) or when migrating sealed secrets from one "Palladium" device to another. Q: Are the keys stored on the SSC renewable? A: No, but neither are they retrievable in any practical way. It's technically conceivable that a dedicated hacker could pull the SSC from the motherboard and physically attack it in a way that would produce the key, but this would be an extreme case and even then would only affect the single machine (i.e., it would not be a "BORE," break once run everywhere, attack). And it would require physical access to the machine. Q: I've seen claims that "Palladium" will undermine the GPL. Is that true? A: The claims that we've seen along these lines stem from the fact that the TCPA platform has some features that are accessible only to TCPA-certified software. So if you have source code to a piece of software that uses these features, and if you make changes to the source and recompile, you'd need to obtain a new license for the software from the TCPA: This concern is not an issue with "Palladium" because "Palladium" does not contain any restricted-access functions (except for functions restricted by the user); any nexus loaded into "Palladium" can access all "Palladium" security features for itself. Nexus B cannot access nexus A's secrets stored with "Palladium," but nexus B can always seal its own secrets without needing to hold a special license (from Microsoft or anyone else). Of course, because "Palladium" exposes a programming model, it would be possible for someone to build a "Palladium" nexus that would restrict access to itself to some set of licensed applications. And, recursively, one could write an application on top of a nexus that restricted access to itself. But a firm design principle with "Palladium" is that the hardware and software itself will not have any such restrictions. Q: How can anyone be sure that "Palladium" does exactly what you claim it does? A: We have attempted to make the trusted computing base (TCB) of "Palladium" as small as possible, since it is the TCB that ultimately enforces "Palladium"-based policies (and could bypass them). We will make widely available for review the source code of the critical piece of enabling software, the nexus, so that it can be evaluated and validated by third parties. Q: Can Linux, FreeBSD or another open source OS run on "Palladium" hardware? A: Virtually anything that runs on a Windows-based machine today will still run on a "Palladium" machine (there are some esoteric exceptions1). If you currently have a machine that runs both Linux and Windows, you would be able to have that same functionality on a "Palladium" machine. Q: Could Linux, FreeBSD or another open source OS create similar trust architecture? A: From a technology perspective, it will be possible to develop a nexus for other operating systems on the hardware of a "Palladium" PC. The "Palladium" PC design is covered by patents, and there will be intellectual property issues to be resolved. It is too early to speculate on how those issues might be addressed. 1 These exceptions would include the following: 1.Debuggers will need to be updated to work in the "Palladium" environment, but they can still work. 2.Some special performance tools will need to be updated. 3.Software that writes directly to TCPA hardware will need to be updated. 4.Memory scrub routines (at the hardware level) will need attention. 5.Third-party crash dump software may need to be updated. 6.BIOS mode hibernation features will need to be updated to work with "Palladium." C-FIT Community Discussion List List Parent: seth.johnson@RealMeasures.dyndns.org C-FIT Home: http://RealMeasures.dyndns.org/C-FIT To Subscribe/Unsubscribe: ------------------------------------------------------------ Send "[Un]Subscribe C-FIT_Community" To Listserv@RealMeasures.dyndns.org From seth.johnson at RealMeasures.dyndns.org Thu Aug 15 16:21:29 2002 From: seth.johnson at RealMeasures.dyndns.org (Seth Johnson) Date: Fri Jul 8 22:09:57 2005 Subject: [free-sklyarov] [DotGNU]Internet Society on Digital Restrictions Management Message-ID: <3D5C3779.2C40DFDD@RealMeasures.dyndns.org> (Forwarded from CYBERIA list) -------- Original Message -------- Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 18:02:06 -0400 From: "R. A. Hettinga" To: CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM --- begin forwarded text Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 22:18:29 +0100 From: Somebody To: "R. A. Hettinga" Subject: Statement of the Internet Society on Digital Rights Management FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE August 15, 2002 Contact: Julie Williams 703-326-9880, x111; 703-402-6715 cell Statement of the Internet Society on Digital Rights Management Washington, D.C. - The Internet Society strongly opposes attempts to impose governmental technology mandates that are designed to protect only the economic interests of certain owners of intellectual property over the economic interests of much larger portions of society. The current debate in many countries of the world regarding digital rights management (DRM) has illustrated the inevitable conclusion of technology mandates in law: a world where all digital media technology is either forbidden or compulsory. The effect of these mandates is to grant veto power over new technologies to special interest groups who have continually opposed innovation. There are many policy reasons that can be advanced to oppose government intervention in technology. Society at large has a powerful economic interest in promoting research resulting in the creation of new products and services as well as new jobs. Many of the legislative proposals currently under consideration would shackle technology and the research needed to support it, solely for the benefit of one small group. From the standpoint of sound public policy, intellectual property rights must be respected but must also be kept in balance with other rights and interests. In particular, copyright law is a kind of "bargain" between rights owners and consumers. Copyright, except in rare instances, is not perpetual, and there are a wide range of fair use exceptions to copyright that limit its restraints. Without these limits, copyright would soon become an oppressive burden on creativity and freedom of expression. The Internet Society acknowledges these policy considerations, but also believes that there are other even more persuasive arguments, based on sound engineering and technological principles, that show the folly of government mandated technology. Technology mandates are inherently anti-innovative. The entire concept of a mandate is that it freezes a particular technology at a point in time, and inhibits research and development on new and better technology. Technological standards are desirable and even necessary for widespread implementation of new technology, but all standards sooner or later must give way to new standards. This process should not be impeded by legislation that effectively prohibits research and development. A classic illustration of the dangers of DRM legislation may be found in legislation enacted by many countries as part of their treaty obligations under the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO) copyright treaties. The so-called Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), passed by the United States Congress in 1998, is an example. Under the WIPO treaties, the United States, like the other countries bound by the treaties, had an obligation to "provide 'legal protection and effective legal remedies' against circumventing technological measures, e.g., encryption and password protection, that are used by copyright owners to protect their works from piracy . . ." [See S. Rep. No. 105-190, at 8, 10-11 (1998)]. The DMCA, in responding to this obligation, illustrates the "law of unintended consequences." While purporting to help copyright owners, it seriously threatens research in the field of encryption for security. The DMCA prohibits "circumvention" of existing technological measures (such as encryption) that control access to a work and encryption; it prohibits "trafficking" in technology designed to circumvent access control; and it prohibits "trafficking" in technology designed to circumvent copying. These prohibitions are subject to certain exceptions; the DMCA acknowledges rights of fair use, so that, in certain limited circumstances, circumvention of copying protection for purposes of fair use of an encrypted work does not violate the act. Another important exception is the separate provision of the DMCA that allows circumvention of access controls for the purpose of encryption research to identify flaws and vulnerabilities of encryption technology. This provision is narrowly drawn with explicit conditions relating to good faith in performing research. Most significantly, the exception is for access only; it does not permit what the act refers to as trafficking in such research. The danger to research presented by statutes like the DMCA is best illustrated by a real world example of a researcher in the field of encryption. Just because cryptography can be or is being used for purposes other than copyright protection, does not mean it is not also used for copyright protection and therefore subject to the provision of the DMCA. Although a researcher may be looking at a certain type of cryptographic technology that is used to protect packets containing information in the public domain, that same technology might also be used to protect other packets that contain copyrighted data, unknown to the researcher. Likewise, a researcher might attempt to break the protection on an item without realizing that the protected item is a copyrighted work, which may not be discovered, if at all, until it is too late. But the issue isn't whether the researcher has cracked the protection - the issue is what the researcher may do with the resulting information. A central question for encryption researchers is whether publishing the results of their research amounts to disseminating something whose primary purpose is to circumvent copyright protection. Under the DMCA, the act of circumventing access controls for good faith research, standing alone, is, generally speaking, legitimate. This does not present great problems to researchers. However, when the researcher then wishes to publish the results of the research, the DMCA provides a test of the intent of the original circumvention that depends on whether the subsequent publication is made to "advance the state of knowledge" of encryption research, or whether it is made "in a manner that facilitates infringement." In other words, if the researcher acts in good faith to circumvent access control and publishes with the intent of reaching other researchers, but the information ends up being "disseminated in a manner that facilitates infringement," then the original circumvention of the access controls may have been illegal. Since there are both civil and criminal remedies available to copyright owners, the researcher faces serious dilemmas in deciding whether, how and when to publish. There are already court decisions in the United States and elsewhere involving both civil and criminal aspects of the publication of encryption research. Many prominent figures in the field have already spoken out against the chilling effect of legislative interference with research in technology. The Internet Society calls on the legislatures of the world to limit the damage caused by shortsighted legislative efforts, intended to carry out the seemingly high-minded purposes of the copyright treaties, that instead threaten the advancement of science and technology. About ISOC The Internet Society is a not-for-profit membership organization founded in 1991 to provide leadership in the management of Internet related standards, educational, and policy development issues. It has offices in Washington, DC and Geneva, Switzerland. Through its current initiatives in support of education and training, Internet standards and protocol, and public policy, ISOC has played a critical role in ensuring that the Internet has developed in a stable and open manner. It is the organizational home of the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF), the Internet Architecture Board (IAB), the Internet Engineering Steering Group (IESG) and other Internet-related bodies. For over 10 years ISOC has run international network training programs for developing countries which have played a vital role in setting up the Internet connections and networks in virtually every country that has connected to the Internet during this time, while at the same time working to protect the Internet's stability. ISOC is taking the next step in this evolution with the recent announcement of its intent to bid for the .ORG registry based on the belief that a thriving non-commercial presence is a key element in developing a strong social and technical infrastructure in all nations. For additional information see http://www.ISOC.org. --- end forwarded text ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' ********************************************************************** For Listserv Instructions, see http://www.lawlists.net/cyberia Off-Topic threads: http://www.lawlists.net/mailman/listinfo/cyberia-ot Need more help? Send mail to: Cyberia-L-Request@listserv.aol.com ********************************************************************** _______________________________________________ Developers mailing list Developers@dotgnu.org http://www.dotgnu.org/mailman/listinfo/developers